Famous men discuss death and heaven - where do you stand?

I listened to Dan Rather's "America" radio show on Sirius XM Tuesday, and Rather and one of his guests got into a riveting discussion about heaven.

Two very old men were discussing what comes next after this life.

Rather, the grizzled 88-year old former CBS newsman, is sure of heaven.

Shatner, the 89-year old "Star Trek" icon, the original James T. Kirk, isn't sure about heaven at all.

The actuarial tables suggest both men will get a definitive answer fairly soon.

Their give-and-take helped me recall a conversation at a bereavement luncheon while this writer was serving a church in south St. Louis County back in the '90s.

The woman across from me at a table in fellowship hall looked at me belligerently with arms folded protectively against herself.

"All that stuff you said in the funeral about heaven?" she began.

"Yes," I replied expectantly.

"I think it's a bunch of nonsense," she informed.

Yours truly sat silently for a moment, then took in a couple of bites of pork chop, washing them down with a sip of iced tea.

Looking up after a moment, I said to her, "Would you pass me the salt?"

Not going to argue

A long time ago, it occurred to me it is fruitless to argue about religious beliefs with someone whose mind seems closed. In one of the many books in my theological library, now safely ensconced in the attic since my ministry retirement, is a slender volume about faith. In it, I found an arresting sentence which unfortunately ends in a preposition but is valuable nonetheless.

Revelatory statement

"Faith is not something you make yourself have; it is something you find yourself with."

The woman from the '90s, unhappy with my decision not to engage, revealed her pain in her next few sentences.

"I lost my dad early. He was too young. That's when I stopped believing in God and in heaven."

As someone who has also lost a father, I connected with her in that moment.

"I understand," I replied. "Let me ask you something, though. Do you accept death as the inevitable end of our lives here?"

Rather and Shatner

These two famous men, who know their temporal lives are nearing their end, began to talk frankly about death this week on SiriusXM.

Shatner: Are you contemplating dying and what it's going to be like?

Rather: I'm not fixated on it, but I do think about (death) from time to time. In some ways, I fear it. On the other hand, I have a curiosity about (death). I don't see it necessarily as a downer. The one thing I hope is that there isn't too much pain. In my prayers, I say, "Whatever is going to be, help me to meet it with some modicum of courage and grace."

Shatner: Do you think you're going to heaven?

Rather: (emphatically) Yes. I do.

Shatner: That's faith -- and faith is curious. Other people say, "I don't know, and I'll find out when I get there." What a mystery -- the need for faith!

Rather: Do you believe in heaven, Bill?

Shatner: I'd love some concrete proof. Some of my religious friends are looking forward to dying. They've got a belief system that seems to repeat life on earth -- "I'll see my friends there or I'll see my parents." That doesn't seem to logical to me. Yet I want to believe. I can't get there.

A reflection

You can't think your way to faith. For a person trusting in Christ and accepting His promises, the temporal mind says it is absurd to believe in life after death, in existence beyond the grave. We don't have empirical proof unless the testimony of the witnesses to Jesus' resurrection in the New Testament is accepted as valid. There is a gap between Rather and Shatner and at this late stage in their lives, the chasm is unlikely to be bridged. I love to quote the First Law of Thermodynamics for those particularly of a scientific mindset whenever I encounter an open mind to discussions of death and heaven. To wit: "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Rather, it can only be transferred or transformed from one form to another." Apply those words of science to life after death. We can reasonably surmise the life force of a human being does not disintegrate at physical death. It is transformed into something new and different.

If I were sitting with Captain Kirk, I think I'd tell him that. And since his mind is open, I'd love that discussion.