Posted by Old John on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 8:38 AM:
If a trickle down theory helped quite a bit, just imagine how much it would have helped if more than theory.
"At the beginning of the dynasty, taxation yields a large revenue from a small assessment. At the end of the dynasty, taxation yields a small revenue from a large assessment." .. Ibn Khaldoon
The more taken from the productive for needs of the nonproductive, the more the need.
Replies (110)
The more taken from the productive for needs of the nonproductive, the more the need.
-- Posted by Old John on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 8:38 AM
True!
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 10:19 AM
I bet if if you could no longer by junk food and pepsi on food stamps and only alow decent food, the use of food stamps would drop dramaticly.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 10:22 AM
lumbrgfktr wrote:
"I bet if if you could no longer by junk food and pepsi on food stamps and only alow decent food, the use of food stamps would drop dramaticly."
Actually, that's not true. They find ways around such restrictions. There was a woman shopping in Illinios a few years back with a cart full of hamburger meat. When the clerk asked if she was having a lot of people over for grilled hamburger, she replied: "No, but I can't buy dog food with food stamps."
I have not idea if she was honest or just giving a smart-*** answer to a question she regarded as none of the clerk's business, but she did pay with food stamps...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 11:36 AM
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 11:36 AM
True. But just becasuse people wills still abuse the system doesn't mean the usage would not drop. Also, the government gives allocates way too much. It should be used as a means so people don't starve and not perpetuate obesity.
I used to work in a grocery store and watch kids come in and buy 1 tootsie roll. They were a penny each. Then the mom would come in buy a pack of cigs. Frustrating to watch, but the cards did stop that practice.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 12:04 PM
There used to be a black market on Food Stamps, back when they were actual stamps. I believe they offered about 50% of face value. Food Stamp recipients would sell them and buy cigs and junk food with the cash. The black marketeers would either use them or sell them for profit to people who would use them to buy eligible items.
The shift to cards was supposed to reduce that. I have no idea if they've found a way around that. I suspect they buy eligible items now and sell those on the black market, but I have no report of that happening.
The primary benefit of the cards was to reduce the reciept of change. If you bought a $1.50 eligible item with a $10 food stamp, you received $8.50 in cash to spend as you saw fit. Stores reduced this slightly by returning some of the change in Food Stamps. The cards ended that practice by simply putting the change back on the card as credit, which can only spent on eligible items. I'm sure they've figured a way around that, but I haven't heard of it, yet.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 12:20 PM
Spank,
What I found wrong with that program, they did not check who they gave it to very well. I know of several receiving it who did not need or deserve it.
And 2nd, those getting the comoodities were eating butter and I was having to eat margarine, which I hate with a passion. But there was no way I could afford t eat butter then.
Oh, and I know at least one poster on here might suggest that if I am eating butter now, that I should save the difference and give it to the poor and/or needy, some of which have been sitting on their able bodied, broad backsides since way before I could afford to retire.
Probably my intentions are not "Pure"
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 12:45 PM
Rick,
I agree. I think If you receive government benefits that puts you on a restriced list. You can't receive credit cards (or a special credit card with reasonable intrest rate and low balance). You can have a cell phone, but no texting or data abilities. Just a phone.
A threshold for food products need to be developed and only these items can be purchased with food card.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 2:04 PM
Wheels,
Probably shouldn't be eating butter anyway. But then again, eating butter was better than the trans fats that were supposed to be healthy.
But I havn't read a health article within in an hour. So can somebody tell me if eggs are ok to eat?
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 2:07 PM
As far as butter, I don't know how many hours I spent cranking on grandma's butter churn but, it was a bunch.
Rick,
Eggs better be okay. I have the 'Big House Breakfast' from Huddle House at least once or twice a week.
-- Posted by SpankTheTank on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 3:10PM
Spank my problem was I no longer had my feet under Mom or Grandma's table when commodities were the latest fad. I had butter then. It was mt table where the problem started. All I had to eat was what I could pay for and butter was off my list of approvied groceries. And I am still ****ing and moaning about it. ☻ ☻ ☻ ☻
Lumber,
You are probably right about the butter, but I like it and I intend to eat it in moderation. Same thing with some other items. An egg now and then, pie , jelly beans, ice cream... that type of thing. I will do without Broccoli, skimmed milk, and that type of thing to balance things out.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 3:40 PM
Well~~~I am one of the 8% that are receiving food stamps. Until Obama was in office I was getting $10.00 a month. Now I am getting $21.00 a month. It is not much but I am greatful for what I have, and it does help.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 3:41 PM
Hookie98,
1 in 8 is 12.5%, not 8%.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 3:43 PM
Wiff and Spank,
If your nostalgia overcomes you and you need a butter fix... Stoney's in Perryville sells a product made by the Amish in Ohio.
Picked some up yesterday, along with liver sausage, head cheese, bacon and a few other yummy items.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 6:14 PM
Shapley ... the food stamp cards are now sort of 'rented out' to friends/relatives. There's no solution, really, to the mis-use of such things ... even in the days of 'commodities,' recipients traded or sold their butter, cheese, etc.
People would still use their food stamp benefits if only 'staples' were allowed ... actually, it would be reasonably easy for the government to do that ... just as it is done on the program for expectant and/or nursing mothers. The only difference is that, like in a couple of families I know, they might still have enough left to buy necessities at the end of each month. Of course, a plus might be that people, but kids especially, might be eating healthier ... and even not be so overweight.
Even in the days of commodities, evidently many people received more than they really needed ... and that seems to be rather true with today's system, also.
The latest thing, lumbr, is that our invasive government is trying to come up with restrictions on salt ... one suggestion was to pass a law that restaurants could not use ANY salt in their cooking. Personal choice may be becoming a thing of the past ... and justified by 'keeping us healthy.'
But hey! Maybe sometime in the future, in the cry for healthy lifestyles, the government could mandate daily exercise ... from perhaps age 2-3 years old! If you're more than 10 pounds overweight ... go directly to Weight Boot Camp? Umm, no ... thinking a fine-per-pound would suit the government better.
-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 6:36 PM
Sateva,
We probably shouldn't do either of the things you suggest to the poor.
In my opinion what we should do is help them get a start to be self reliant and they should thank us if they are able bodied by doing something to help themselves.
Out goal should be welfare as a way of life is out. No more third generation welfare families. We help you, but you then get up and shoulder your own load. Only exception is if one is physically or mentally unable to do so. But no one can convince me that there should be families producing generations of exceptions.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 8:58 PM
WHY ... my Sister-in-Law's Mother-in-Law received commodities. My MIL bought the cheese, butter, peanut butter, etc. ... probably for a pittance, but the woman (who took in ironing for a living so she wasn't just a 'slacker' on welfare--although I do doubt she turned in her earnings to IRS) said often that there was no way she could ever eat all the food she received ... and wondered who in the world decided that one person could use it all in a month's time. That cheese was THE best, too!
When I worked nights at a 7-11 (in a rather scary neighborhood--love remembering the crippled man across the street who called to tell me that he was up most all night every night, sitting in his wheelchair watching the store just in case he needed to call the cops), most of the business was people buying nickle candy with their food stamps ... and of course receiving the change back in cash.
But yes ... commodities helped make sure there was 'food on the table' for many families ... In thinking about the things they received, seems reasonable to me for our government to only allow food-stamp purchases of those 'staples' ... or at least outlaw the use of them for soda pop, cookies, chips, candy, etc.
Aw, sateva ... "Let 'em eat cake." Many of them do ... You've perhaps seen those packages of little cakes which are pretty popular? ~grinning~ However ... don't think ANY of us believe that 100% of the FS recipients should be booted out of the system.
Wheels ... We can't convince those self-proclaimed 'compassionate' people that the welfare system we now have is holding many people back, particularly younger generations. It just baffles me that people cannot see or comprehend that--the wasting of the futures of so many ... just because it's easier and sometimes more financially desirable to remain on the programs.
A good and sympathetic idea grown into a monster in the name of 'compassion.' Where's the compassion for the families who will never be able to better themselves, because the government has made them too comfortable to even try?
-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 10:54 PM
Speaking of cake, I wonder if I can enroll Trig in the SNAP program. I'm not sure if dog food is allowed. He hd developed a taste for Cesar, a juicy meaty stuff than comes in a small container. He is not fond of kibbles or dry food. Of course, with the "Card" I could buy him steaks and good prime roast and forget the cheap stuff. With his expensive tastes, I'm not sure I can stretch the card over a month. What is it, about $200 a month for a single person? I guess he qualifies as single and dependent.
I've got to figure some way to recoup the almost $5000 it cost me when he broke his two front legs.
Do you think he might be able to qualify for Section 8 housing? And how about SSI as a result of his injuries.
Heck, I think I'm on a roll here!
-- Posted by voyager on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 11:43 PM
I'm embarrassed ... don't know what SNAP is ...
-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 11:50 PM
News Flash....commodities are still around! Just not like they used to be. The food banks in town distribute them along with other items.
Shapely Hunter~ so I am 'stupid' maybe that is why I get food stamps~
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:05 AM
Voyager,
About 30 years ago, I could have applied for and received a license for Trigg to install and service LP Appliances in the State of Missouri.
However a number of years ago they tightened up on that arrangement and now he would have to go to school, plus do continued education.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:09 AM
Seems I remember the spin on going to the pastic card was to lessen the stigma of being seen with the stamps, you know, allow a little dignity.
The original food commodity program was designed in part to use products government bought as a means of propping up farm commodity prices. First milk and basics went to schools. Like any good government program, importance and need was expanded to promote it's growth. We have evolved to the point of children starving unless the school provides at least three squares a day for the children and sends some home for the family on weekends.
Back in the early days a lot of people bartered the cheese etc. with other foods and essentials.
Soon the interstate system made it easier to have dual residency to collect handout money in Chicago and food stamps in Mo. and Tn. Remember the convys once a month on I55?
-- Posted by Old John on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 7:43 AM
Mom, SNAP=food stamps.
-- Posted by voyager on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 7:49 AM
Wow! what a surprise. The food stamp program is filled with fraud. That's a news flash. What Government run program IS NOT filled with fraud?
The entire Federal Goverment is a fraud! Your beating a dead horse. The only way the Government programs will work is if there are none at all.
We humans will take advantage of any thing at almost anytime.
-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 8:11 AM
Rick,
I think Spaniard is referring to the Welfare Reform Act, frequently referred to as the "Welfare to Work" programme, which the Republicans sponsored and President Clinton signed into law. The measure was designed to restore the temporary nature of the welfare programme. It was largely successful.
I'm sure that many have found ways around the provisions of that law, as well, but by and large it reduced the dependency levels markedly. It did not deal with Food Stamps and Section 8 housing, which are different issues, and are available to working families as well as traditional welfare recipients.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 8:51 AM
1 in 8 does seem a bit low to me personally.
But, just wondering out load: If you get Gov. food, Gov. health care, Gov. money for rent and utilities, etc. Should you be subjected to Gov. inspections?
What if according to the Gov. height vs. weight chart the Gov. doctor desides you are overweight. Should they then ban you from buying "unhealthy food"?
What do you think?
-- Posted by Airborne 95B on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 9:38 AM
Airborne,
I think those are great ideas. Not sure who pays for those inspections though.
Also, nobody should get unhealthy food no matter their height to weight ratio.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 10:53 AM
The entire Federal Goverment is a fraud! Your beating a dead horse. The only way the Government programs will work is if there are none at all.
-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 8:11 AM
I agree!
Regards the no programs at all. Can we start tomorrow morning?
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 10:54 AM
Also, nobody should get unhealthy food no matter their height to weight ratio.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 10:53 AM
Lumber,
That may possibly be true if the governement is furnishing that food.... but what I choose to eat so long as the government is not subsidising me is nobody's damned business period.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 10:58 AM
Have_Wheels:
That may be, but the government disagrees with you. Right now, they are concerned about your salt intake, and they want to regulate how much salt food processers, restaurants, and other vendors put in the food you eat. No word yet on whether or not they will ban or limit the amount salt available on tables in restaurants.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:09 AM
Why Not~~~ Who in the heck said that I was paying for internet? Oh and I guess $21.00 a month in food stamps is a heck of a lot! I could be at the library for all you know. I DO have a library card. And by God I worked most of my life. I started working under the table when I was 12 years old. Did I have a childhood? Heck no! I was babysitting for six kids when I was seven plus taking care of my aunt when she broke her leg. She couldn't work when she had her broken leg and she needed to pay her rent so she let a friend move in with her that had six kids. Their mom was drunk most of the time and I had to take care of my aunt and the kids. So don't judge me because God is the ONLY one that has that privilege.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:12 AM
I'm all for creating new jobs by hiring more folks to check on people recieving assistance. Have someone go with these people to the store, have someone monitor their meds. I also agree with random drug tests and anyone using should be automatically disqualified.
This would stop alot of the problems and with all the money they save by not paying out to those who abuse the system they can pay the salary of those hired to do the checking.
-- Posted by pinkpanther on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:25 AM
Lumber,
That may possibly be true if the governement is furnishing that food.... but what I choose to eat so long as the government is not subsidising me is nobody's damned business period.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 10:58 AM
I agree and that is what I meant. If you want to bacon wrapped deep fried snickers with a butter suace, that is your choice.
However, I don't think you should be able to buy those items with food stamps.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:25 AM
Have_Wheels:
That may be, but the government disagrees with you. Right now, they are concerned about your salt intake, and they want to regulate how much salt food processers, restaurants, and other vendors put in the food you eat. No word yet on whether or not they will ban or limit the amount salt available on tables in restaurants.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:09 AM
I kind of agree with that. I do think alot of the sodium needs to be reduced. Doesn't need to be no salt added, but get rid of the solutions. They are only they for weight and really serve no purpose but to rip you off.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:28 AM
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:12 AM
That is a sad story.
But I do have a question. How old are you and how long have you been on food stamps?
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:29 AM
I'm all for creating new jobs by hiring more folks to check on people recieving assistance. Have someone go with these people to the store, have someone monitor their meds. I also agree with random drug tests and anyone using should be automatically disqualified.
This would stop alot of the problems and with all the money they save by not paying out to those who abuse the system they can pay the salary of those hired to do the checking.
-- Posted by pinkpanther on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:25 AM
That is more labor and very time consuming on the monitoring. We can't effectivly monitor criminals and child molestors, so not sure how we would monitor food stamps.
Drug testing. I agree in theory. But its easy to say drug test for benefits. However, I have never seen anybody explain how this could work. If a parent fails a drug test, the kids don't eat? The easy answer is take the kids. But the foster system is also already overloaded and could not handle a large influx. Should we go back to taking the kids and putting them into orphanages? I don't know any of these answers, but it should be explored. My point being though that its not a simple as saying drug test for benefits.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:34 AM
lumbrgfktr wrote:
"I kind of agree with that. I do think alot of the sodium needs to be reduced. Doesn't need to be no salt added, but get rid of the solutions."
And you really think that is government's place? We're further lost than I thought...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:36 AM
What does it matter how old I am and how long I have been on food stamps. What do you think that I can buy with $21.00 a month? And I do not buy junk food.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:54 AM
Shapley,
Yes. But it has more to do with clear labeling. And I am talking about from the supply side more than the restauraunt side.
for instnace, make compaines post yeilds on their package. If you sell me turkey breat, let me know in clear labeling that i am purchasing 70% turkey and 30% salt water so it increases the weight. Two competing companies should not be able to call their product Turkey Breast when there is clearly 2 different products.
This should also be mandated for schools as well. The requirements now do not make sence and are not really nutrious.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:56 AM
Why does it matter? Because Food stamps were implemented for temporary instances.
If you have been on them for an extended period of time, it matters. If you feel you are deserved them, it matters.
I ask because you could either prove or disprove what we are discussing on here.
And maybe you don't buy junkfood. But you could and that is the point.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:00 PM
Have_Wheels:
That may be, but the government disagrees with you. Right now, they are concerned about your salt intake, and they want to regulate how much salt food processers, restaurants, and other vendors put in the food you eat. No word yet on whether or not they will ban or limit the amount salt available on tables in restaurants.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:09 AM
The government may take a flying leap when it comes to that. I will salt my food to taste if I have to steal a bucket full of salt from one of those big piles at a highway shed to do it!
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:02 PM
lumbrgfktr wrote:
"Yes. But it has more to do with clear labeling. And I am talking about from the supply side more than the restauraunt side."
I have not problem with labeling requirements. That falls under the 'regulation of commerce', and is a legitimate role of government. However, to dictate how much salt can be in food does not, in my humble opinion.
There are guidelines, but I do not know how they are determined. For example, I see hams sold with 'water added' clearly on the label. I do not know how this is handled with turkey, but I suspect there is a limit above which they have to add the label, so some keep their content just below the triggering level. I believe that to be unavoidable, because I do not think we need to bear the additional cost of determining and identifying with absolute accuracy the content of each one. Caveat Emptor is still the rule of the day.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:13 PM
Shapley,
Unfortutanlty its not that clear. Some list broth as an ingrediant seperate to the solution. Some include broth. There really is not regulation on how they tinker with it. It used to not be a problem, but it became alot more common place. So they might in fine print put 20% solution on the bottome of the label. But that doesn't include the broth they already injected for flavor.
I agree that the government should not be able to regulate how much they use, but I do think companies need to be more open about how they use it.
FYI, I once went on a couple of dates with a dietitian, which is the only reason I know this.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:22 PM
~"Because Food stamps were implemented for temporary instances."~
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:00 PM
I think that you have been mis-informed. If you would like to read the history of the food stamp program you can read it at:
"The United States Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)[1], historically and commonly known as the Food Stamp Program, is a federal-assistance program that provides assistance to low- and no-income people and families living in the U.S. Though the program is administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, benefits are distributed by the individual U.S. states."
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:07 PM
Wheels,
Thanks for the info. Never tried liver sausage. I would love some head cheese and real butter. I wonder if they have blood sausage?
You can't beat Amish food. There were times while traveling to dad's if you cut through a certain road there would be Amish women and girls selling homemade pies along the road.
You're making me hungry.
-- Posted by SpankTheTank on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 12:45 PM
Spank,
The pies make me hungry.
The head cheese and the butter are excellent. I haven't tried my liver sausage yet, but if it is as good as the head cheese I think you will like it.
I was trying to go to M&M Meat on 51 but they were closed when I got there. I was told they have Blood Sausage and it appears that they do their own slaughtering. M&M can be a little hard to find as it sets back off the road and it looks like you are going into a sub-division. It is roughly a mile or so North of Stoney's on your left on Highway 51. This would have been my first trip to M&M but have been told it was good.
I can personally recommend Stoney's.
Be aware you may be violating a White House mandate because their food tastes good.... so it must have at least some salt in it.
Stoney's closes @ 6:30PM and M&M closes @ 5:00PM
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:23 PM
Hookie,
Would you like to post a list of all of the free crap available? It seems like you might be spending your whole day at the library.
I don't want to miss anything when Obama gets what little I have left.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:25 PM
Oh and one mor piece of informatation. If someone is laid off from their jobs, and are drawing un-employment that does not mean that they will be elegible for food stamps. When you apply for food stamps the government takes in consideration the last three months of earnings. I found that out in the 1980's when I was temporarily laid off from the shoe factory. I did not need the help three months past, I needed help at the time that I applied. By the time I would be elegible I was back to work, and did not need the help anymore. So I did not get any assistance at all. You try living on nine hours pay at about $2.65 an hour. My check for nine hours after deductions and insurance and union dues was $3.54. And un-employment~~that was my waiting week.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:27 PM
Hookie98,
Don't think you are going to make much progress here. On some subjects we all seem to paint with a pretty broad brush. I personally don't lose any sleep over Food Stamps or TANF. I do believe there is still room for improvement, but I remember when things were much worse.
I would rather feed some people who really don't need it than have someone go hungry; sure others will disagree.
-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:44 PM
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:07 PM
I figured you would say somthing like that.
I don't care what wikipedia says. Its not designed as a free handout for capable people. But seeing your attitude, its easy to see how it has become that.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:53 PM
Rhino,
I think most everybody agrees with that. Its more of the issue on what they are allowed to buy.
In this country, we face a huge healthcare and obesity problem. So I see nothing but absolute stupidity in allowing those who supposably can't sufficently get proper nutrtion to buy Pepsi, cookies and Durritos.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 1:59 PM
lumbrgfktr,
I sure can't argue with that.
I spent a lot of time in DFS then DSS offices over the years and I would really like to scrap the whole system and start over again. I think it would be easier to design a "workable" program from the ground up than fix the one in place.
Sadly, I accept that no program will be fool proof. I just think we can do better while not causing significant degradation in services for the truly needy.
-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 2:09 PM
Hey~~~I am NOT looking for a handout. I never have. I won't ask for help unless I need it. I have a LOT of medical problems and will probably have more that I do not know about since I was illegally adopted and can not get ANY of my families medical history. I am not like a lot of people that go to the food banks every month. I haven't asked for help for a very long time. I have no intention of abusing the system. I was not raised on welfare. And, by God, I wish that I could get out there ane work. You have no idea of what my life is about. I answer to God...not you or anybody else.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 2:10 PM
I am on disability, but I wish that I could do just the simplist thing like go for a walk along the creek bank. I miss going for long walks. You don't know what you have until you loose it. I had a massive heart attack in 2001 and almost died. That is another one of my disabilities. I had one doctor tell me that I was "eat up with arthritis". His words not mine. God knows that I would LOVE to go back to work.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 2:21 PM
Hookie98,
I don't think anyone begrudges help to someone who is truly in need.
-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 2:25 PM
I'm still thinking out loud: as more and more people trun over large sections of their lives to be ran by the Gov. at what point will the Gov. actuall take control?
I'm not talking about speed limits or polution control. What if the Gov. outlaws red meat, sugar, salt, tabaco, whole milk, butter, deep fried foods, etc.
If you let the Gov. into your life (food stamps, HUD, health care, etc.). Should you be surprized when the Gov. takes control of your life? On Hud fine move into this Gov. housing project our lose your money. On food stamps, fine you better meet these guide lines or else. On Gov. health care no smoking, drinking, salt, fried foods, etc.
How much control are people willing to give up?
-- Posted by Airborne 95B on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:04 PM
I think a lot of it boils down to ire when we realize we are not much better off if we work hard and save over those that don't.
During my younger days of working long hours and being stingy, I was contantly reminded that my neighbors and friends of no more income than we had were able to drive a new car and truck while sporting a boat and other luxuries.
I figured we would be the ants and they would be the grasshoppers someday.
Someday is here and the grasshoppers and the ants seem to be in the same boat and the government holds the oars.
-- Posted by Old John on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:06 PM
"A government that takes control of the economy for the good of the people will end up taking control of the people for the good of the economy." - Bob Dole -
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:12 PM
A nephew has little problem with the Welfare Reform Act ... he works for 5-6 months, then quits (or gets fired for not showing up, etc.) ... and happily spends his EIC money (plus federal tax refunds) on things like stereo equipment, gaming devices, marijuana, etc. ... while his family with 3 children receive food stamps, Section 8 housing, utility help and Medicare. Sorry, Spaniard, but I view that as 'being on welfare' and abusing the system.
Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:28 AM ... But should it be the responsibility of our federal government to regulate how much salt ... or trans-fats, etc. ... we eat (thanks, Shapley)? Isn't that just a bit too much govt. interference in our personal/private lives?
In that vein ... if govt. is so concerned about our 'health,' why don't our representatives make a law against all 'unprotected sex,' in order to stem the growth of AIDS ... which is definitely detrimental to one's health? All kind of the same difference, isn't it ... when the 'justification' for those other things is to keep us healthy and thereby save on health care costs?
Hookie ... I sincerely hope that things get better for you, and I wish you well. Just in revealing that you receive that pittance in food stamps says you may be a stronger person than you might realize.
-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:18 PM
Hey~~~I am NOT looking for a handout. I never have. I won't ask for help unless I need it. I have a LOT of medical problems and will probably have more that I do not know about since I was illegally adopted and can not get ANY of my families medical history. I am not like a lot of people that go to the food banks every month. I haven't asked for help for a very long time. I have no intention of abusing the system. I was not raised on welfare. And, by God, I wish that I could get out there ane work. You have no idea of what my life is about. I answer to God...not you or anybody else.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 2:10 PM
And medical problerms and disabilities are legit reasons, so you should not be acting offended.
In fact, if anybody should feel agitated by its abuses is you. So not sure why you are getting this upset over it.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:26 PM
-- Posted by Airborne 95B on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:04 PM
Good questions.
But I look at it from a different angle. I take from a "beggers can't be choosers" ideal. If you take help, it should only be logical necessities. And by accepting that help, you are admitting you need financial help. Its amazing how people don't understand how to manage money.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:29 PM
"I think a lot of it boils down to ire when we realize we are not much better off if we work hard and save over those that don't."
This is true in many cases, Old J. Those who spend a good portion of their lives not working will be devastated at retirement age, though, to realize that they have contributed so little to SS that their checks will be minimal ... and of course they will have no alternate means of support such as annuities, pension plans, etc.
"I figured we would be the ants and they would be the grasshoppers someday." And that's going to be an unpleasant surprise to quite a few who have 'worked the system' for much of their lives, with little or no regard or thought to the future.
-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:29 PM
Save a Lot offers some canned goods labeled "No Salt Added" As far as green beens and corn I cant taste the difference. I have that habit Wheels mentioned of salting to taste anyway. [Would that stuff in the highway shed be the salt of the earth?]
A few years ago I had a round of high blood pressure and was told to cut out salt. After paying attention to sodium content on so many of the processed foods and cutting back on salt while cooking, I began to find many resturant foods too salty.
I think it is what you get accustomed to that indicates how much is "to taste".
-- Posted by Old John on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:33 PM
Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 11:28 AM ... But should it be the responsibility of our federal government to regulate how much salt ... or trans-fats, etc. ... we eat (thanks, Shapley)? Isn't that just a bit too much govt. interference in our personal/private lives?
In that vein ... if govt. is so concerned about our 'health,' why don't our representatives make a law against all 'unprotected sex,' in order to stem the growth of AIDS ... which is definitely detrimental to one's health? All kind of the same difference, isn't it ... when the 'justification' for those other things is to keep us healthy and thereby save on health care costs?
-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:18 PM
Guru,
No, I don't think they should regulate how much salt we eat. I think they need to regulate how producers use it and have them be much more clear about how they manipulate the products. kind of like they did with trans fats, product labeling, etc.
I do think they also need to overhaul children's nutrtion in schools requirement.
Guru, its not about personal choices. It's more about product safety. In this instance, I am not saying the government should tell you how much salt you are eating. Rather, they need to be more upfront about how much salt they are using.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:36 PM
Don't know where I read it ages ago, Old J. ... that salt is an 'acquired taste' ... seems like it had something to do with baby food ...
I don't salt anything when cooking ... pepper and other seasonings (tarragon, basil, etc.) make a lot of difference.
In the whole scheme of things, though ... since my BP is always almost-dangerously low ... perhaps I should use more salt? ☺
-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:42 PM
I am not getting 'upset' over this. I agree that there ARE people out there that DO abuse it. How do you think I felt when I 'heard' that a person that I knew(not friends with) was getting over $200.00 in food stamps(before EBT) and would sell them so they could get drugs? I was getting $10.00 in food stamps at that time. Why didn't I turn them in? Because I bought some of the food stamps for .50 on the dollar(I think I bought $20.00 worth for $10.00). If I could pay half price for something that I would and could use back then I would. I know that it was wrong but when you are trying to do the best that you can to survive....
As for today I would not do that because I do not want to loose what little I do have. And I appreciate everything that I have.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:46 PM
Guru,
They use alot more now than they ever did.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:47 PM
Look at it this way, Hookie ... If you hadn't bought those food stamps, someone else would have anyway. Hate to say something like this 'out in public,' ... but wish there were some way I could help you.
lumbr ... I believe the salt thing was explaining why baby food tasted so awful to adults ... because back then evidently they didn't contain salt. Guess they do now?
-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 3:58 PM
Guru,
They probably do. But sodium in baby food is not really a concern.
Its interesting you mentioned this. Babies, and children, have different taste buds than adults do. We actually loose our bitter recepters as we get older. Its why we like or dislike certain foods as we age.
One theory is that you are more atuned to bitter as a child because when we were hunter/gatherer/foragers, the toxic plants have a bitter taste.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 4:04 PM
When it has to do with industry profits, industry does sometimes regulate itself.
Recently the dairy folks have complained that soy milk should be called soy drink, reminiscant of the cheese food- food product labeling.
Sodium content is indicated on products but in a sneaky way sometimes. On a can of vienna sausages the amount is not alarming until you notice one can is three servings.
Most of us have heard whole wheat bread is better for us. Most bread named wheat or honey whole wheat etc. are made with bleached processed flour. Only if it say 100% whole wheat is it so.
And gee, trying to compare meat pricing has become convaluded due to the same meats being called different things by different stores. [Sliced butt roast, pork steak; charcoal steaks, tenderized bottem round; boneless, bone-in etc]
But maybe the folks here on speakout should get together and apply for a gubment grant to fix these problems. Kinda like gettin a grant to tell everyone the EPA is right about unattainable emissions in Cape county.
-- Posted by Old John on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 4:08 PM
And your point is????? Yes my 'Daddy' worked under Jimmy Hoffa and I CAN prove it. He was daddy's union president I did not say that daddy worked for him. Just because I stayed with my aunt when her leg was broke what does that have to do with it? What....do you think that I am lying? I have no reason at all to lie about anything.
gurusmom ~ Thank you, and Bless you. God takes care of me. He always has. I put all my faith and trust in Him. God has never failed me or let me down. He knows what I need and He provides it. That is probably why I haven't needed to ask for help in a long time. There are people out there that need help more than I do and I would prefer that God help them first and foremost.
-- Posted by Hookie98 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 6:12 PM
Well, lumbr ... I still hate liver! Funny thing about liver ... Mama fixed it once a week. One brother and I ate it (trying not to gag) ... because we were HUNGRY enough to eat anything set before us. Guess that isn't a problem in today's families, is it? Was reading article about trying to make school lunches more healthy, and kids not accepting the menus at all ... some wouldn't even try the food.
Thought of that, Old J. If one reads the labels and the servings per can or box or package ... it's pretty obvious just what we're ingesting. I never did know who determined what a 'serving size' is, and always wondered about it.
Mentioning meat reminds me of one of my biggest gripes ... that our government at some point in time allowed meat packers to add water to their products, citing 'water makes it more tender.' Some time later, the government then allowed the raising of the percentage of water. Certainly makes my ground beef more 'tender' (said sarcastically) ... but sure makes it hard to make decent gravy nowadays.
-- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 2:01 AM
I suspect most of that "ground fresh daily" is freshly ground at the store as soon as that frozen made to fit the grinder tube is thawed.
In days gone by I ground a lot of beef from trimmings of other cuts, sometimes adding tollow for balance. And yes some water was added to hold it together.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 9:09 AM
People Also should by leaner ground beef. Chuck is usually the best.
Now people will buy ground beef, thinking its cheaper. However, they never consider the yeild. After accounting for the fat loss, ground beef really isn't that much cheaper.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 12:24 PM
Lumb, Not all that fat is lost, somes stays around as flavor.
I figure a little fat or lard is better for me than those man made things I can't pronounce.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 12:42 PM
Old John,
I Agree. But in regular ground beef you loose too much mass. I always recomend ground chuck for a juicy burger that still fits your bun.
And if you want to try somthing really good, take really lean ground beef, but mix it with sausge. About 1/2 and 1/2. In the past i have done Italian Sausage, but I am particularly fond of Brat burgers. Also, mix some blue cheese in your ground chuck as well.
Or just keep it a basic burger with little seasoning and a big slice of homegrown tomato.
Point being, ground chuck makes the best burger. Give it a try next time you fire up the grill.
-- Posted by lumbrgfktr on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 12:50 PM
Burger variations are like.. well everyone has one or two. Good points though, using the dryer meat mixed with pork to replace the fat missing tends to make a good burger that doesn't fall apart on the grille.
A very popular burger in my time was at a local small drug store like variety place with keg rootbeer, coffee, Bromos and sandwiches.
Those were from regular ground beef blended with oatmeal.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 1:26 PM
I'd totally forgotten that! Used to mix oatmeal with ground beef for burgers and meat loaf. Thanks for reminding me.
Pops always says 'fat is where the flavor is,' so I (reluctantly) buy 20% fat for his burgers (which I don't eat), and 10% for everything else.
Wierd, though ... he even eats the fat on ham, steaks, roasts ... I don't. His cholestrol levels are great, while mine are through the roof ... Go figure ...
-- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 3:54 PM
Mom,
Remember Pops had an 8th grade mentor. His superior knowledge must be acknowledged. ☺ ☺ ☺ ☺
Oh by the way I agree with him, fat is where the flavor is.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 4:15 PM
"Remember Pops had an 8th grade mentor. His superior knowledge must be acknowledged." You are just too cute, Wheels ... As I believe I've mentioned ... suspect that he wasn't paying as much attention to the educational mentoring as he was to the 8th grader's blossoming physical attributes.
Spank, I don't eat 'innards' either. But deer meat, rabbit ... if they're cooked right. Couldn't get a taste for squirrel, though.
I have some of Pops' mother's recipes ... souse, scrapple & rhubarb pie ... and have a collection of depression recipes that would probably depress some of to even think about eating some of that stuff.
Years ago, Daddy taught me how to make Mock Apple Pie ... the kids loved it!
-- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 8:34 PM
I remember my dad liked souse (sic) sandwiches. I have no idea what it had in it but it crunched. Nasty stuff.
-- Posted by WHY NOT on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 8:17 PM
That was probably the cartlidge in the pig's ears that were in the stuff Wiff.
I don't think I get as close to the bone as Spank does, but it makes me sick to see some people eat chicken and they leave half of the meat on the bone. I had one Grandmother that would straighten a Grandkids rear end out on that issue. You simply did not waste food.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 8:47 PM
Never thought of wasting food back in the Good Old Days ... but we certainly didn't! Grandma even cooked the tail of the chicken, as well as the back ... and the heart. Hmm, what do they do with those parts now ... since I never see them in a packaged chicken? Pet food maybe?
-- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 8:52 PM
Mom,
There was a whole chicken cooking here today. Had chicken rice soup and I ate the liver and the gizzard. Don't know what happened to the heart. But they are still with a whole chicken. At least where we shop.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 8:57 PM
Mom,
I might add that it just wasn't in a German or Dutchman's makeup to waste things in my day. It has been said that they used everything but the squeal when they butchered hogs.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 9:01 PM
What happens to the hearts of chickens, pig snouts and other stuff sounding disgusting? Vienna sausage for one.
I remember squirell brains and eggs was a quite normal. And my '39 Farm Journal cookbook has direction for 'possum and all kinds of critters.
In my family, the grease left on the platter was eyed by anyone with a bisquit left.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 11:44 PM
Duncan, don't blame me, I have never Cheered, I did try Tide once.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 11:49 PM
"It has been said that they used everything but the squeal when they butchered hogs."
Long ago, Pops 'introduced' me to ... Mountain Oysters and even Turkey Fries. I don't remember how I felt about the MO, but the TF were superb.
What I wondered at the time, though, was ... Wouldn't ... um ... obtaining the main ingredient for the TF be really work-intensive?
-- Posted by gurusmom on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 1:25 AM
Gurus,You just reminded me of the one thing I am a bit queezie about.
We all have something in that catagory don't we?
The MOs didn't suit my taste before I knew what I was eating.
-- Posted by Old John on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 2:22 AM
What I wondered at the time, though, was ... Wouldn't ... um ... obtaining the main ingredient for the TF be really work-intensive?
-- Posted by gurusmom on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 1:25 AM
Mom,
I expect it would... and a bit traumatic for the turkey as well!
Old John,
I have not tried either. So you and Mom both have something on me.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 2:48 AM
I don't intend to try either...knowingly...ever!
-- Posted by voyager on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 12:07 PM
Yes, Spank ... the intestines were used as 'casings' for the sausage.
Don't know about all Turkey Fries, but the ones they used to serve at a little tavern in St. Joe were marvelous.
Very clever about Turkey Trauma, Wheels ...
-- Posted by gurusmom on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 5:19 PM
SpankTheTank,
"Chitlins" or more properly Chitterlings; gotta try em just once...
-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 10:39 AM
One time a lady asked what's that. When told it was beef tongue, she said she wouldn't eat anything that came out of a cow's mouth. She bought a dozen eggs.
-- Posted by Old John on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 11:10 PM
Why Not, I remember folks saying they would fry sauasge, put it in a crock, pour in enough lard to cover and bury it. They would cover it with straw and a round board so they could get to it easily.
I think those chittlerings were mosty gone by the end of butchering days. Better than candy for most children.
-- Posted by Old John on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 11:26 PM
I had no idea that I was amongst a bevy of Aristologists.
-- Posted by voyager on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:09 AM
Voyager, That word does not compute. What is an aristologist?
-- Posted by Old John on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:30 AM
Is Duncan having another time out? Did the odds makers get it right?
-- Posted by Old John on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 1:03 AM
"she said she wouldn't eat anything that came out of a cow's mouth. She bought a dozen eggs."
Hope I didn't wake Pops up by laughing at that!
Perhaps Duncan has given up on us all? I honestly do hate to see him so upset. Some of what he says is true and makes some sense, but sometimes we all just have to pull back a little in order to keep our blood pressure on an even keel ... or something like that.
-- Posted by gurusmom on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 2:59 AM
Old John,
Aristologist...one who practices Aristology (the art of dining.)
-- Posted by voyager on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 8:54 AM
Duncan hasn't been banned, apparently, since the threads he started are still extant. He must be taking a hiatus.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 9:10 AM
Good, we need a respite from the "New World Order."
-- Posted by voyager on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 9:13 AM
They served Chitterlings on the ship once, to celebrate 'Black History Week'. Like Why_Not, I couldn't get past the smell.
When I asked what was cooking, they said it was chitterlings. "Hog Guts?" I asked. When they replied in affirmitave, I told them they were supposed to remove the crap from them first...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 9:13 AM
Chiterlings:
Ingredients:
2 pounds hog maws (pig stomach)
2 pounds chitterlings (pig intestines)
3 quarts water
1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon red pepper (flakes)
1 medium peeled onion (white or yellow)
Rinse the hog maws thoroughly and trim the excess fat. Put them in a 6 quart pot along with the 3 quarts water, onion, pepper, and salt. Bring to a boil, then reduce heat to medium and cook for 1 and a quarter hour.
While maws are cooking, rinse chitterlings thoroughly and trim the fat. Add chitterlings to pot after maws have cooked for 1 1/4 hour. Cook another 1 1/2 hours or until tender. Add extra water if needed.
Prepare a large cast iron skillet with 1/4 stick butter. Remove maws and chitterlings from pot and slice. Stir with a large metal spoon while browning. Pour the water and onion from the pot.
(I think it is the 'rinse thoroughly' step they may have skipped...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 9:40 AM
I have been in the presence of "chitlins", but there are sometimes you just have to draw the line somewhere; "chitlins" are on the other side of my line.
-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 11:04 AM
Hog Craklin's
Water
Pork skin with fat
Salt
Lg. iron pot
Put small amount of water in a large iron pot placed over an outside fire. Cut pork skin with fat into 2 1/2 inch cubes. Add to pot and cook until cracklins float. Do not over cook. Remove from oil, drain, and cool for 15 minutes. Return to hot fat and cook until "eyes" (bubbles) pop out, about 5 minutes.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 11:25 AM
Spank, Now that you brought it up, those were cracklings I referred to. They were basicly deep fried, the byproduct of the lard.
Mom used the oven to turn them into pork rinds like what's in the potato chip section of the store.
Rick, a lot of folks called that "marking hogs".
The lad in "Ole Yellar" was "marking" hogs but with the family brand for the sake saving parents from explaining.
-- Posted by Old John on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:21 PM
Just think, if there weren't food stamps when the economy imploded, all of the people that are out of work could very well become bankrupt or homeless.
How about that line- 1 in 8 people in America are homeless?
While I do believe food stamps need some reduction or reform, they shouldn't be dismissed entirely.
-- Posted by almighty on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:22 PM
here use to be a couple of good restaurants on the near north side of St.Louis that sold brain sandwiches..they were fryed like a burger in pork grease , they were crunchy on the outside and mushy on the inside ...
-- Posted by *Rick* on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 11:19 PM
So much for a midnight snack.
-- Posted by WHY NOT on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:36 AM
You wouldn't have been there at midnight or you might not be commenting today! At the very least you could have been caught by as stray bullet.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:47 PM
I was using the wrong word. Wheels, you should have lined me out. They were cracklings. I'm not sure if I've ever ate chitlins, but probably have.
-- Posted by SpankTheTank on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 11:16 AM
Guess I missed that one Spank, I will try to do better.
Regards the chitlins, not the way they speak of them prepared here probably... but have you ever had pork sausage in the country. They stuff the sausage in them, but they are more than rinsed thoroughly. They are turned inside out and scraped and soaked in salt water before using them. Natural casings is a more polite term.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:57 PM
if y'all ever had to casterate a hog , you'd have different opinions about mountain oysters...ya gotta watch those cracklin's for hair...
-- Posted by *Rick* on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 11:36 AM
Rick,
Been there... done that. I take it you don't do the mountain oysters. Neither do I.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:59 PM
Wheels
i go to north St.Louis alot..it isn't all too bad anymore..not like when i was a kid
-- Posted by *Rick* on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 12:59 PM
Rick,
I stay pretty much out of the area. About as venturesome as I get is a trip to Crown Candy for lunch occassionaly. That is on the North Side and is the oldest Soda Fountain in St. Louis. They serve a great Malt and if you can eat 3 of them in something like 20 or 25 minutes they are free and you get your name on the wall.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 1:05 PM
WOW, I think I'm gonna be sick!
-- Posted by Turnip on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 4:47 PM
Rick,
I believe I would rather try to remove an abscessed tooth from a pit bull than try that bull trick.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 5:14 PM
Menu
If a trickle down theory helped quite a bit, just imagine how much it would have helped if more than theory.
"At the beginning of the dynasty, taxation yields a large revenue from a small assessment. At the end of the dynasty, taxation yields a small revenue from a large assessment." .. Ibn Khaldoon
The more taken from the productive for needs of the nonproductive, the more the need.
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