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Speak Out 4/17/08

Thursday, April 17, 2008

Socialized medicine

NO PRESIDENTIAL candidate that I know of favors truly socialized medicine as it is properly defined, though a lot of politicians and talking heads would like you to believe otherwise. However, having said that, the percentage of Americans who look with favor on the phrase "socialized medicine" is 45 percent. Not bad.

Fuel or food

WITH MORE and more foodstuffs being converted into energy, we will become much more fuel-efficient while, with the rising price of food, seeing our lives end as a result of starvation.

Good pork

IT'S LIKE I've always said. There's good pork, and there's bad pork. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, Missouri's 8th District has consistently always gotten good pork.

Wallowing in the mud

COLUMNIST CAL Thomas claimed John McCain is running an aboveboard campaign for the presidency. What a surprise. McCain is the the nominee of the GOP. He has no competition. Wait until the run-up to the general election. Like the Democratic candidates, McCain or his surrogates will be more than willing to try to become chief executive by wallowing in the mud.

Erase graffiti

IT WOULD be nice if the city could paint over the graffiti on the floodgate.

Message comes first

I AM a member of a semi-large church here in Cape Girardeau. The church offers a contemporary service every Sunday, and it is wonderful. There is wonderful music provided by the church band. The people are friendly. And, yes, I am entertained. However, this is not the reason I attend this church. I go because of the message that is preached every Sunday by the pastors. The "entertainment," as some of you put it, is a plus. Because of this type of service I believe that more younger people attend church. This world could use a younger generation with morals.

After-prom focus

TO ALL of the young women who will be attending their high school prom soon: I realize it's a special evening for you, and that's wonderful. But please let it end with the evening activities and don't attend church the next day in your prom attire. On Saturday evening it was all about you, but on Sunday morning it's not. It's about Christ and our focus should be on him alone, not you.

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We already have a form of 'socialized medicine'. It's called the County Health Department. If you can't afford the 5 dollars for a visit, they will still see you and make arrangements if more is needed.

Also, if you look at what all the candidates promise, and look at their powers given to the President in the Constitution, they WILL NOT be able to fulfill the majority of their promises. Sad thing is, though, is that they think you're too stupid to know it. Which, suprisingly enough, is true in the majority of voters.

-- Posted by BoratObama on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 7:12 AM

After-prom focus, Christ would prefer ^your^ focus be on something other than the attire of young women.

^Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

^Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

-- Posted by ho ho ho on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:02 AM

Ahhh. The fashion police are at it again. Perhaps those 'wearing prom attire' should find a church where people don't look at your clothes but at the fact that you are there. Please remember that God looks at the heart. Something this person should consider. I know, I know, the 'judge not' people will jump on that but they fail to understand the next scripture that says, "Otherwise, you will be judged by the same standard you use to judge others. The standards you use for others will be applied to you." I believe that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." God judges the intent.

-- Posted by KingsKid on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:09 AM

Oh good grief!

-- Posted by DickCheney on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:14 AM

WeLcOme sPriNg! ThE noXiouS, judGmenTal, selF-rIghTeous, hYpoCriticAl WeeD-linGs haVe sPouTed!

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:26 AM

good pork !

are corporate pig farmers hogging the pork market ?

i think so....

-- Posted by ..Rick on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:50 AM

Socialized medicine

I'll wager that 98% of that supposed 45% that looks favorably on "socialized medicine" have no real idea exactly what it means or what it would mean to them. All they understand is "the gov'ment will take care of me". The Founding Fathers must be doing about 60,000 rpm in their graves at the thought of their descendants looking to government to solve all their problems for them.


Unconstitutionality aside, have you looked at the COST!!!

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:55 AM


Be vewy, vewy quiet. It's time to hunt self-wighteous wabbitts. Huh-huh-huh-huh-huh!

The God I believe in cares not whether or not you arrive at His house in silk and lace or sackcloth and ashes, rather He revels in the presence of all, come together in fellowship to seek forgiveness for our sins, praise Him, and glorify His name.

In other words: Oh, for God's sake, get a life! Prom dresses cost a small fortune these days. If those young ladies wnat to wear them to church every day for the next 10 years, why is it any concern of yours? You should just be glad our young people are still going to church!

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:02 AM


I like mine fixed on the grill, smoked with hickory, usually smothered in a nice, thick sauce. Now, That's "good pork"!

AS for the post: idiotic earmarks are killing the Federal Budget. It's time for them to stop.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:10 AM

After prom focus

Would you rather them come dressed as a bum or what they wear to the beach? You need to keep focused on what the preacher is preaching not on the looks of the young people.

-- Posted by newman90 on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:12 AM


Borat said: "Also, if you look at what all the candidates promise, and look at their powers given to the President in the Constitution, they WILL NOT be able to fulfill the majority of their promises. Sad thing is, though, is that they think you're too stupid to know it. Which, suprisingly enough, is true in the majority of voters."

Not just about socialized medicine - look at all the new foibles and perks they are promising, and the price tags.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:13 AM

I'd like to hear more about these kids showing up at church the next day after prom. I hadn't heard anything like that before. The proms I remember attending I don't think I could have made a church service the next day. But, hey if it's a rented suit -- its best to get as much mileage out of it as you can -- same with the fancy dress.

-- Posted by TommyStix on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:24 AM

Shallow minded people who want to sit and judge what someone wears to church is the main reason some no longer attend churches. I am sorry but I do not care what they wear they are there to worship not be insulted or judged by a bunch of hypocrits who use church as a social gathering. I attend a church where some wear dress clothes while others show up in jeans and a t-shirt but they are all accepted and all welcomed. You do not have to dress a certain way to believe and that is what it is all about they are their to worship not impress you.


I agree everyone is always ready to jump in and judge someone without realising they made their own mistakes in the past. I have made mistakes and will admit that although at times it is a hard pill to swallow but no one on this earth is perfect and that needs to be remembered.

-- Posted by semoangel70 on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:25 AM

I think the comment about the prom dresses is the message that it sends. Many a poster moralizes on this board and decries the decline in morals and values that is prevalent in the youth of today.

What message is sent when a person attends church the following day of prom in the exact same clothes? "Look at me. I did not go home last night. I slept (wink wink) in my clothes."

People are not stupid. We know what kids are into (same things we were into...drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll). What is wrong with asking kids to present themselves in an acceptable manner. If a kid is wearing their prom clothes to Church the next day it is not because they came home early, washed their clothes and pressed them for morning services!

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:48 AM


If you take the cost of providing insurance away from the employer those savings would have to go to increase the salaries of employees so they could afford insurance on their own. So no real savings there for the employer.

You are right I believe there needs to be (bite my tongue) some type of regulation/controls over the insurance industry. This must take place on all ends. Malpractice insurance for doctors is outrageous as well.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:54 AM

Found this at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Pertains to past discussions regarding teachers. Thought it was interesting.


-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:59 AM

That is exactly what I am saying. If business is not required to provide it and it is left to the individual, I doubt salaries would increase. Then we would have more uninsured people.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:19 AM

Socialized medicine - Yess! The wheels of change are in motion.


You are partially right. Yes, UHC would take insurance expense away from the employer. Yes, in that HUGE savings, the employer can afford to pay more to employees. NO that raise would not be needed to PAY for their health insurance.

Stop trying to skew the facts and post "incorrect" information. Employees who ARE still lucky enough to have insurance provided by the employer, still have HUGE co-pays and even have to contribute out of their checks monthly to the employer to get it.

Lets be honest, VERY FEW employers give 100% coverage anymore. Additionally, Littlemac, NONE of us posting here know what TRUE UHC will bring to the USA, but to put it into a negative light suggests fears of change.

We all know for CERTAIN, the the current system DOES NOT WORK; therefore, ANY change would be welcome. What's that old saying from the commercial? "Try it Mikey, you might like it!"

In closing, it's hard to poo poo something when you have never tried it or experienced it. The fact is, it's coming...you might as well get ready. We can always get rid of it, if it fails.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:25 AM

I have to get this off my chest.

Reference: Jerimiah's becoming historic building.

Here we go again. Another Marquette building fiasco. Here is how this will play out. They'll make it an official historic building, then the new owners can apply for the good ole TAXPAYER funded dollars, remodel to the hilt, make some cash, then go belly up, and sell the place on foreclosure.

Why why why do we keep letting "them" play this game. I am soo sick and tired of funding peoples business ventures through tax dollars!

Everyone complained about the waterpark tax. We'll here you go, I want to hear you complain about this too!

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:32 AM

I am of the get employers-out-of-the-insurance-business bent myself - they should not be covering our health care costs any more than government should. You're right, that would probably foster a bit of an economic boom. ALthough, I have seen some self-insured companies cut their costs and still provide decent insurance for less, so there may be some options there. It should be up to the employer whether of not they cover your health-care costs. I am totally opposed to having our government involved in my health care management - period. That means I will continue to say no to UHC. As I stated before - I saw UHC in action, first hand, while stationed in Europe, and it bites. Initially, it would start as a way to provide coverage to those without, then it will grow to cover everyone, as politicians use this program to further their own political agendas, just as they have used Social Security, MediCare and MedicAid over the years. People will flock to the program for every sniffle, clogging the system and sucking up funds. We already have a Federal program to cover uninsured people who go to the emergency room. Go to any emergency room on any given night of the week - you will see uninsured people there with kids with low fevers and a cold, taking up time and space for something you can treat at home just as well - but, it's free, so why not? Then, as the bulk of our citizenship ages and requires more care, and the number of tax-payers decreases, revenues will decrease, and so will funding for the program. Then, the bean counters will start telling us what we can and cannot have in the way of care, or, start cutting the reimbursement to the care provider. Already happening with MediCare and MedicAid. In many cases, neither of these programs even cover the COST the provider incurs to provide the care. One of our local hospitals generally writes off anywhere from 50-65% of the COST of providing cardiac care, on an annual basis, because that is the portion not covered by MediCare/MedicAid, and they generally can not collect from the patient. One result of these wonderful government programs is that some providers have no choice but to pass the losses on to you, the insured patient, who pays their bills. Another is that most insurance companies have had to limit payouts too, due to the increases being passed on to them. Their money pit is not bottomless. Maybe those bean counters will even be deciding who will live and who will die from, say, cancer - a very costly disease to treat. What if the "cancer treatment" budget for your local health care center is used up for the year? I have seen first hand how government funding cycles work - do not think it couldn't happen.

By the way, I capitalized COST so you would be certain to understand: I mean the actual dollars the provider expends to provide the care, not the bill the patient gets.

No, the answer is complicated, and I do not have all the answers. Here are a few suggestions:

1) Tax breaks for employers who are self-insured.

2) Unlimited, tax free health-care savings accounts that do not get drained at the end of the year - if I put $1000 in a health-care acount this year and do not use it, it should remain MY MONEY for future use, and I can continue to add to it and use it at my discretion. This would help everyone. They should be able to draw tax-free interest, too. Congress had an opportunity to do this for us last year - they declined.

3) The one government program I would,possibly, support: a catastrophic illness coverage. If someone has the expense of a major illness, and insurance does not cover all the expenses, I could support a program that would help pay those bills.

4) Government regulation and taxation of insurance providers costs the insurers billions each year - get government off their backs so they can do business more efficiently and they will have more funds available to cover the insured.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:48 AM


Can you name me one failed government program we have ever been able to "get rid of"?

I'm not afraid of change, I just have enough government intrusion in my life already...

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:52 AM


The thing with insurance is the comapanies have all of the control. We own a small company and employee about 30 guys 10 of which is family. Our insurance carrier just informed us when we renewed the policy the rate increase was 53.2% higher than we paid last year. We pay 100% of the employees coverage and 25% of their family so that they can all have insurance but with these kinds of price hikes we are taking a big hit. If we do not offer insurance we chance loosing good employees to comapanies that have it, if we give them a raise and keep paying the insurance as we have been then it is a finacial hit for us and if we have them pay it the raise we would have to give to compensate would be more than the $1 a year they already get. There needs to be a cap on what the insuarance companies can charge and considerations need to be made for the small companies that are trying to make it better for their employees. There has to be a compromise here somewhere.

-- Posted by semoangel70 on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:53 AM


I have never hit myself on the toe with a ball peen hammer either, but I am pretty sure I won't like it.

Government programs are like germ resistant bacteria, once you get them they are next to impossible to get rid of.

-- Posted by D'oh on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:54 AM

Two things Jerry,

I was not trying to skew anything. I don't think UHC as comparable to Canada is going to happen here. Mel had stated that it should be left up to the individual to purchase health care and take the burden off businesses. I believe her premise was that would be extra money business could reinvest which would help stimulate the economy. We were both commenting that there would need to be some change in regulation and cost for that to be remotely effective.

Second point regarding Jeremiah's. Those are federal grant monies and tax incentives that are in place to help historic sites. It is about reinvesting in your community. I would rather see it being applied here than elsewhere. Kudos to those people trying to re-energize Jeremiah's. Cut my teeth there some 20 year ago.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:56 AM


Just for the record:

I...agree...with...you (God, that hurt!LOL) about Jeremiahs, Marquette, etc and this type of gov'ment funding for businesses. Declare it a historic landmark - fine. Use my tax dollars to fund renovations for a tenant business - no. It they can't do it on their own - darn the luck.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:58 AM

Call me a cynic, but when it comes to pork barrel projects I look at who is making the proposal, and who it will actually benefit. Most times, if you look close enough, it's usually a donor, family member, or friend of the politician making the request. I'm sorry, but most if not all of our so-called representatives are a bunch of crooked basstards.

-- Posted by BoratObama on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:01 AM

what does IMO mean ?

stop the outrageous lawsuits and insurance would not be an issue to anyone . ..seems like a lot of folks see a pot of gold for every little thing that happens in their life and look for a quick/easy way to make a buck...

-- Posted by ..Rick on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:08 AM


So, it's ok with you to take money out of someone elses pocket, ie Federal Tax Dollars, to renovate a building that already has a business in it, a business that should be able to cover it's own renovation costs; but it's not ok to use your local tax dollars to renovate a building for a new purpose for a new company that will provide additional jobs for the community in which you live and, by virtue of putting money in more peoples pockets will put more money into the local economy and therefore the local tax coffers...???!!

The logic of that one escapes me!

Still...agree...with...Jerry (Aaaaaarrrrrgh!)

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:10 AM


I will indeed call you a cynic. I believe most people are against Pork Barrel projects except when it benefits their region or them personally.

Why are so many people against higher taxes? Because they want their own money and do not see how they benefit from their tax money. Poor people do not have a problems with higher taxes because they generally do not pay any and usually get the most benefit.

It is the same thing. I could care less about what kind of pet project is going on in Montana. I do care about what is going on in SE MO.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:11 AM


You are being consistent. Please don't agree with Jerry (nothing personal just like to see Jerry go into a rant when no one agrees with him). He said it is OK to take local tax dollars but not federal. Mel is stating, and I agee with her, these dollars for renovation will be utilized somewher, why not here? Anyhow there is not currently a business in there as Jeremiah's is closed and has been for some time.

Now if you would like to say that there should not be any type of program like this then I can understand your point.

Bloody-IMO is In My Opinion.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:17 AM

SWBG, all you said is very true. It's not the value of the project to the community, it the scumbag behind it that bothers me. Lots of times it appears that most politicians are out for themselves or their friends and donors. One example I can offer is that we had a county commission voting on and passing a proposal to build a new highway. Guess what? Everyone on the commission owned large tracts of property along the corridor.

-- Posted by BoratObama on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:22 AM


I do not believe ALL politicians are crooked. I believe their are some that seek power for monetary gain or simply for the sake of seeking power.

However I also think an honest person can be corrupted by the system. Not the political system so to speak but by the power and money that is there. However I guess if they are truly honest they won't be corrupted.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:26 AM

Whatever happened to MJB??? Was he kidnapped by aliens when they came to pick up their blue tubs?

Where's Jerry66??? He must be out trying to convince people that universal healthcare is a good thing.

All you people need to celebrate the goodness of Barak Obama. He is the new god and has come to save us all. Hillary has come as well. Her thighness is to be worshiped.

-- Posted by Donde.esta.mi.vaca on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:27 AM

Yikes! Where to start?

Ok. Melange, True, those are a combination of federal tax dollars etc.,but taxpayer funded none the less. (As I mentioned about my reasoning to vote YES for the Park Tax)

Big difference here though. This will be funds to fund a PRIVATE business. SWBG, Did the Marquette stimulate our ecomomy here in Cape? As Littlemac suggested, if they can't renovate and go into business on their own..too bad. I'd like to have $2,000,000 in taxpayer grant funded dollars to build me a funeral home too.

Again, you complain about giving money to those who NEED it, but is this really a need?? No!

UHC, I look at it like this, our forefathers based the foundational values of this country on LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You speak of them rolling over in their grave? I bet they would be rolling over at the COST of health care.

Healthcare...aka LIFE is a right. We fight for RIGHT TO LIFE everyday in this country. (The abortion issue) If we cherish life that dearly (and I do) then what is the difference between fighting for the life of that unborn child to the 48 year old on public assistance and that has cancer?

The fact is, life is life. Denial of healthcare is an abomonation. For godsake, even the PETA people fight for the life and care of a cat, harder than we do human life. Does a cat have means to pay for healthcare?

MY version and opinion of healthcare it should be free, free, free. Taxes can pay for it. Whether you are rich, poor, employed, unemployed, sick, healthy, fat, thin ect..it shouldn't matter. The current healthcare system puts a price on life. Now that is truely sad. Do you think that is what our forefathers had in mind?

The daily trials of life are hard enough without worry about the cost of ones health and whether you can afford this treatment or that. What will will charge for next? Air to breath?

Also, I will take this a step further...If you are against healthcare for all, free or practically free, don't dare call yourself a Christian. Do you think Christ charged for healing the sick or curing the lame? Is this a moral issue? Yes, it sure the hell is!

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:28 AM


Great term! Business Welfare. Love it!

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:33 AM

Surprise, surprise, oil is up even higher today. It's as if someone is manipulating the markets in order to destroy our economy. The dollar is near worthless around the world now. Wow, I think I watched to many episodes of the X-Files.

-- Posted by BoratObama on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:34 AM


You said, "He said it is OK to take local tax dollars but not federal." NO..I never said anything of the sort.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:34 AM


You said, "He said it is OK to take local tax dollars but not federal." NO..I never said anything of the sort.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:35 AM


What do you think of Lindy's blog yesterday? She tells us that Stacy Kinder sends her own children who are supposed to attend Jefferson to Clippard instead, with the permission of the superintendent. I think this little tidbit of information should have been in the news BEFORE the election and not in a BLOG after the election.

-- Posted by BABE on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:38 AM

Fed money, state money, local money....it's still our taxpayer monies no matter where it comes from lest we forget. I find it amusing that people refer to fed and state money as FREE money.

-- Posted by BABE on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:43 AM

Babe. Yikes! You've brought up a good point! I don't like that at all. She'll probably use her new position to manipulate other things too. Dang!

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:43 AM

Babe, it is FREE money for these private enteprenuers to use for their business. Like I said, that would be great if we could ALL get these grants and funds for our new businesses. It seems like the "select" (like was mentioned previously) like to grease each other palms.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:46 AM

Social(ist) Medicine:

Well, there it is. I see the UHC topic is recycling again, so I may as well recycle my best advice on the matter. While you're wasting away in those massive waiting rooms, be sure and check the lamp shades to see what material they're made of. Not only might you find them edible during those long waits, you can contemplate the notion that you may become one of them!!

After-prom focus:

Gee. I think "I see the light"...or at least yours! This issue may not just apply to the attire of prom-goers "the day after" their escapades. Consider also the potential disruptions in church if our wizened senior village citizens would don their thongs and g-strings on Saturday to SURF the SLUDGE SLIDE(!), then opted to wear them again on Sunday morning. The preacher and flock would surely be distracted from "The Word" by wondering if the "surfers" at least bothered to dry and air out their suits!

-- Posted by Herr_Hauptmann_DES on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:47 AM

Jerry66, if you want free healthcare, are you going to send in extra money to help pay for it this year? Put your money where your mouth is or put a sock in it. I realize that Jesus healed for free but he wore sandles and had a beard, too. If I am wearing boots and sport a clean-shaven mug, can I call myelf a Christian? Or, do I have to look just like Jesus?

My opinion is that healthcare needs to cost as much as possible so that people can't afford it. What a beautiful way to start a world population control program at no extra cost.

-- Posted by Donde.esta.mi.vaca on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:48 AM

Carl Jung is very interesting. I have read much of his Jungian works. Freud....Phallic symbols and an obsession with the male private parts. Nothing real academic in his work. LOL

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:50 AM

babe ,

is that avatar Pepe lePew ??

-- Posted by ..Rick on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:51 AM

Healthcare costs are UP because of government meddling to establish Medicare. Now we think it will be better with more expansive government meddling? Some folks just want to live on the dark side of the moon.

-- Posted by BABE on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 11:55 AM


Yes, now that you mention it, I do remember Dana and the new Sears building. No matter what it's for, I am opposed to, as you called it, "business welfare". If a business can not stand on its own, they go the way of the dodo and someone with a better plan fills their niche. I do not frequent the establishment, so I was not aware Jeremiah's was closed - but that does not alter my opinion. Someone owns it, if they want it renovated, they should foot the bill by finding private investors or donations.

Saying if we do not spend the money, someone else will is at the root of much of our funding woes today. It is akin to saying I spen this months grocery money to buy that $500 shirt on sale at Sack's for $495 because, if I hadn't bought it, someone else would have! Or, as an old friend used to say, "25-cents is only a good price if you have the spare quarter and you really, really need the elephant". We no longer have the spare quarter - see the national debt. Just because there is a dollar to spend in the treasury does not mean we must spend it. Such spending is frivolous and should stop.


Christianity = UHC won't wash. Christ also told people they should stand on their own two feet and provide for themselves. Is it morally right to put a gun to my head, take my hard earned money, and give it to others? Compulsory charity is not charity; it is theft. At any rate, what gives any government the moral right to judge what my personal needs are, and to compell my fellow citizens to provide those needs?

Good discussion today - and everyone is so civil lately. It's nice. Sorry for the time lapses - I'm afraid work is interfering with my ability to respond in a timely manner today - guess someone is trying to tell me to get back to work. Guess I better - I'll check in on and off.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 12:05 PM


Lindy has lost credibility with me. And this newspaper may have been to blame, also, with covering up and not allowing this information to be printed before the election. I do not think anyone on the paper's payroll should have a blog...colums yes...as it tends to blur the actual news with chit chat.

-- Posted by BABE on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 12:07 PM

speaking of insurance , anyone who is disabled and has an incurable disease -- like myself -- has little or no chance of finding an insurance company that will cover costs of treatments . The premiums and deductables are almost impossible to pay on disability pay .

medicare is a joke , anyone who thinks it's the answer should have to deal with these government red tape and arguements ...

-- Posted by ..Rick on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 12:18 PM

Hate to mention it, but illegals are putting an enormous strain on our healthcare system. Using the emergency room as their primary care physician is ridiculous. Speaking of illegals, why, if you are here ILLEGALLY and give birth, your child is automatically a citizen. Oh yes, now I remember. It's the idiots we elect year after year. Hell, I'm ready to move to Mexico to get away from the Mexicans.

-- Posted by BoratObama on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 12:33 PM

Borat, there are communities just south of San Diego that are more like the US than Mexico. Not to mention the cost of living is not nearly what it is here.

It is an interesting point you bring up in this day and age regarding illegals having kids in this country and the child automatically be a citizen. Could it go back to the times when most in this country were immigrants (legal or otherwise) and a way to populate the country was to make them citizens at birth?

Interesting question that perhaps should be revisited given the current climate.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 12:43 PM


LOL. Your prescription drugs will be considerably less in Mexico also.

-- Posted by outnabout on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 12:46 PM


You said, “Healthcare costs are UP because of government meddling to establish Medicare. Now we think it will be better with more expansive government meddling?”

You are incorrect. The price of healthcare has sky rocketed because everyone and their mother wants to make a profit off of the sick. Additionally, privatization has never been the answer either. When some “certain” industries started to privatize, the premise was that free competition would cause the price to go down. It’s quite the opposite, now they are raking us over the coals.


Yes, providing for ones self, but healthcare is a different issue. We ALL can’t afford the $240,000 for that heart surgery or cancer operation and I am sure he knows it.


I voted YES for the Park tax (a common good) I would gladly pay my share of the tax for UHC too. (A common good) When you’re co-pays on doctor’s visits and medication start costing you more than $200 per month, you get back to me. My wife’s MS medication is $1200 per month alone. I’m sure my tax portion would be much cheaper.

Frankly, it’s easy to nay say UHC when you don’t have to utilize the healthcare system on a weekly basis. When you start putting YOUR MONEY into the healthcare game, lets see if you talk the talk then.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 12:47 PM

And another thing...LOL Everyone talks of the strain on social security due to all of the baby-boomers. What do you think will happen when they all start trying to make medical claims on their insurance??

Ohh...wait...that's right. They'll just be denied. ;o)

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 1:13 PM

Jerry66, I agree that your situation is a bad one but there's no need for everyone to pay for it. If you really believed in UHC, you'd be meeting with the likeminded people asking them for help with your healthcare expenses. Don't all of you want to help each other out?

By the way, I do put my money where my mouth is where healthcare costs are concerned. I pay for my own health insurance so I AM talking to you!

You liberals want everyone to be taken care of but won't open your wallets to help each other. You want the government to do it for you. When will you idiots wake up and realize that help comes from each other and your own hard work, not the government.

I guess I'm just a mean, old conservative who happens to like keeping most of what I earn. You need to realize that mostly, the bad crap that happens to us is a result of our own bad decisions. If you're hard up for healthcare money, quit school and go to work full-time somewhere that can offer you health benefits.

Had you gone to college much earlier in life, you'd be educated, probably have a good job making good money and would have health insurance. Fact is, you made a series of bad decisions early in life and now you're reaping the consequences. One bad surprise that popped up was that your health went bad. Take responsibility for your mistakes and start making better decisions.

I'm not coming down on you, Jerry66 but you need to wake up and get a job that's going to help you with your health issues. The rest of us don't want to pay your tab.

Do you really think it's a smart idea to be going to school when your wife's MS meds are running $1200 a month? Boy, if I were you, I'd be busting my butt working as many jobs as possible in order to make the bills and to ensure that those I love are taken care of. I sure as heck wouldn't be relying on our idiot government to take care of me. Stop your crying and go to work. A college education comes second to taking care of those you love. Until you get your priorities in line, you have no right to be begging for others to pay for your healthcare.

Last thought... my beer is cold now. Time to drink it.

-- Posted by Donde.esta.mi.vaca on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 1:15 PM

SWG: Are you for real?

-- Posted by KingsKid on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 1:39 PM


You are going on the premise that all are created equal. It would be nice if all could just go out and get that job that will provide health care benefits. Not everything is based upon "poor decisions".

There are a lot of people who are not capable of going to college and will never have a decent job. Is it because they don't work hard? I think it is a myth to suggest that if you work hard in life you can get anything you want. Face it. We all have different capabilities.

The fact is that as a benevolent and just society we are going to have government programs to help people. There will always be people who abuse those programs. There will be many who will be helped by those same programs. It all depends where we draw the line.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 1:44 PM


My Spanish isn’t great but I think you are looking for your “cow”? Tenth grade Spanish was years ago, I was just checking.

-- Posted by Donnie on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 1:47 PM


I already have ONE degree. Additionally, I spent 15 years in the funeral profession making good money. Well..wait, let me explain. MOST if not all of the companies I worked for DID NOT have a health insurance plan. Additionally, one company I did work for took my wife OFF the medical insurance because they felt it cost them too much. ( I knew better and knew exactly how much we were spending and taking in)

Have you ever tried to get someone with a serious medical condition covered on private insurance?

Additionally, my wife "finally" has a job that does provide her insurance, that being said...we still have exhuberant co-pays. Also, I MYSELF have medical conditions caused by the line of work I was in (dealing with carcinogic fluids) I put 15 good years into one career, so before you go telling people this or that, it's best you walk in their shoes to understand the situation!

Having medical issues and a "specialized" degree wasn't going to get me squat around here, and nothing with insurance. My wife and I do well enough for two folks with medical issues and 3 children to raise. We don't utilize government benefits, though we both could. (Sure, I use student loans, but who doesn't)

You try changing jobs at 41 and see how easy it is. What's that new syndrome called? Middle-Aged White Man doesn't have a chance syndrome? I'm not the only in this boat, and believe me with all the job cuts coming, I won't be the last.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 1:50 PM

I love how people like to open their big mouths on here and make assumptions about other peoples lives.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 1:55 PM


Correct, I think it is Where is my cow.

But as he currently has it posted it says Where this my cow.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:07 PM


You wrote:

"Perhaps, SOME should get out from behind the dark-side of the moon and realize the govt' (Medicare) pays healthcare facilities "customary and reasonable" prices for procedures."

What the government considers "customary and reasonable" does not necessarily mean they are covering costs. The write-offs by local hospital to cover costs of care not covered by these government programs are fact, not propaganda.

AS for the expansions: both area hospitals are not-for-profit - fortunately for us. That means they provide quite a bit of free care (see prior comment about snifflers in the ER). The money for the expansions comes primarily from donations, fund raisers. They have to submit a "certificate of need" to the State and, if approved, the State will approve needed expansions. If you want the best, most up to date treatment facilities, there is a cost associatied with that. The amount of use these facilities get each year takes its toll - renovations have to be made, things have to be changed and updated to meet new, ever-changing government regulations and requirements, and to keep up with new technologies and new standards of patient care. And, as our area population grows, more space is required for the facilities to be able to meet area needs.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:09 PM

No, Jerry. It's "Where IS." Donde esta mi vaca?

-- Posted by Donde.esta.mi.vaca on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:15 PM


Your post on your personal problems helps me understand why you feel the way you do about UHC.

In my earlier post, I mentioned catastrophic illness coverage, possibly partially funded by government, as one way in which I might be able to reconcile government intrusion into healthcare. Your situation is indicative of the type of catastrophic illness to which I was referring. If your copays are that big, imagine what your insurer is spending each month. Insurance companies cannot suatain that type of outlay forever, either, without drawing the line somewhere. And, I do not approve of insurance companies refusing coverage, but I do see their point - they cannot provide coverage for anyone withou having a profitable business.

So, a reasonable government program to assist people in your situation is not outside the realm of the acceptable. Heck, we bail out cities built below sea level that get flooded, companies that have a bad business plan, and other people who make bad investments, so why not help someone with a catastrophic illness? But, only as long as it remains such a program without being expanded, and it, at the very least, covers the providers cost of providing care. I still do not want Uncle Sugar meddling in my health care anymore than he already is.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:24 PM


Tu vaca este en el campo de maize. Remover, por favor (this is where my Spanish left me...) before I have steaks for dinner! LOL!

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:34 PM


Nooo..Let's get this right now.

Esta means This

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:36 PM

About the Prom/Church. I think if they go to the prom and stay up late...Everyone should be happy these kids are responsible enough to show up for church at all. I for one enjoy the chance to see them dressed up. Also, at my church the kids like to go to Saturday afternoon mass and then to the prom.

-- Posted by JELLYBEAN on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:39 PM


I used to think the same way as Donde and others in this forum, and obviously now have changed my stance. But this isn't just about my situation. While in the funeral profession I seen how people suffer and how illness can wipe out "EVERYTHING." The word "profit" doesn't need to be affiliated with the terms healthcare, again...it comes down to my previous statement. What kind of society have we become when we put price on human life and healthcare.

I realize it may be a mute point for many, but as the statistics posted earlier, at least 45% of the population DOES want some form of UHC. If a TRUE poll were taken, I would suggest those numbers may even be higher.

Eventually something will break...the insurance companies and the drug companies and healthcare providers can not be allowed to charge "whatever" they please for these services. That being said, the same will happen with oil, food, etc.

Everything has a breaking point. The Boston Tea party was a good testiment to that. Fifty Million uninsured is nothing to laugh at. Just imagine how many "barely" pay for the coverage they have now. The fact is...something WILL be done. It's just a matter of when and how.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:52 PM

A few other comments,

The city should be painting over the graffiti as soon as it is discovered. Had my daughter ask me what some of the painting on the flood wall said.

The other thing with this is if you paint over it it demonstrates to the vandals that someone cares. If they think someone cares they may think someone is watching. Anyone dealing with gangs knows this. Our city should be more proactive. In fact I would be OK with fines to businesses that do not take care of graffiti.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:52 PM


Please be aware that this site does not take security seriously. When I registered with this newspaper to post comments I was assured that it was absolutely private information.

Yesterday I received an email from the webmaster concerning a dispute with another poster and possible banning. Well, that just comes with the territory when one posts on a public board. But what I DID mind was that the webmaster sent the email to both posters at the same time and used both email addresses as the header shows. Now, not only does the other poster know my REAL name and email address but I know his.

This lax of security is inexcusable.

-- Posted by BABE on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:54 PM


I seen that graffitti in the photo they posted last week of the flood gates closing. Frankly, I thought it looked pretty tacky. (the wall that is) Sure does make an inviting atmosphere for all of that tourism they are trying to pull downtown.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:55 PM


If there are 50 M unisnsured (a number I do not dispute) how many are ther on Medicare and/or Medicaid? If these numbers are combined it is quite telling. Because if not for government intervention all those on Medicare/Medicaid would be uninsured as well. Anywhere to find out such numbers?

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:56 PM


I told you I didn't post under a fake name. ;o)

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 2:59 PM


OK found it. As of 2004 52 M on Medicaid and 42 M on Medicare. So basically half the people in the country are either uninsured, on Medicaid, or on Medicare.

Make you go Hmmmm.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:03 PM

I go to a church in another town that has a rather large sized student group, and I have to say that I have never seen anyone in prom attire at church the day after. Cocktail dresses - maybe, but never a full length gown type of dress (and never a tux). It wouldn't bother me one way or the other, but it would definitely be different to see.

-- Posted by MCK on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:05 PM


This article suggests 41 Million


Eitherway, as a self-proclaimed "greatest" country in the world, it is a mind boggling number. If you also take in consideration those who are starving and homeless, you wonder how we can justify sending billions of dollars to other countries for aide, when we have our own needs here at home.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:05 PM

Oops, sorry that last post was for SWBG, not Littlemac. Sorry.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:06 PM


Now if we also take into account all the government employees who are provided insurance via tax payer money and the military personell we are really talking about a lot of people already provided for by the government (or not provided for by the government)

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:10 PM


Here is the article I found.


-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:12 PM


My father never was sick a day in his life. After he retired he purchased the AARP insurance to help along with their social security and other retirement in case he and my mother had severe medical problems. Now that they are near 80, they are starting to see the true costs of health care. An planned impatient visit to the doctor ended up being a two day stay and a $20,000 visit for my father just two months ago.

But here is another story for you...I know many folks who retired from Caterpillar. First they forced people to retire by buying them out, and then promised them they would pay familial insurance until they were eligible for social security. Then, five years later Caterpillar reneged on that promise. It just so happens that one family was going through a cancer battle when Caterpillar decided to do this.

My point is, privatization doesn't guarantee anything. At least UHC would be there when everything else falls through.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:16 PM

Eitherway, the numbers are astounding.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:19 PM

James Nall, if you feel that way...please write a letter to the government and request them to reimburse you for your "contribution only" portion of social security. Tell them to please save the American Taxpayers money by foregoing what you were to receive in social security and medical benefits.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:22 PM

You old codger...you crack me up.

Mel wrote, "Not-for-profit merely means they can NOT show a profit. Does NOT mean they offer FREE health care."

That is not the meaning of Not-for-profit. Not for profit organizations can certainly show a profit. What it means is that there is not an owner, stockholders, or board of directors that profit. The profit must be reinvested into the company. I've been told that hospital employees at times will receive bonus checks.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:29 PM

I'll end up regretting these words, but I'd trust the government with my money and well being, before I would corporate America. Case in point..Enron, locally...Jim Wilson and Riverside Lumber. Ask those folks about 401Ks, Investment portfolios, and Companies that pay health insurance.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:29 PM

There would not be graffiti if the stores did not sell paint on Sundays...

-- Posted by insider63785 on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:32 PM


Don't forget that saying about, "Right to face your accusor."

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:32 PM

Longtime, you're right. Just another reason to reinstate the Blue Law ;o)

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:37 PM

Thanks MeLange

Sigh...I will probably get banned for posting my warning but I thought it was necessary to warn others that this site is lax in security promises.

-- Posted by BABE on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:38 PM


Understand, I do not say our current healthcare system is perfect. I just do not think more government intervention will make it a better system. Like I said, I have experienced UHC in other countries, and if that is where we are headed, I'll pass. And I know that my wife and I are fortunate in many ways, not the least of which is that we are both very healthy, and in that we will be able to keep our insurance, with our current employers who are self-insured, as part of the retirement package when we retire.

AS for poor, starving Americans - I thought we instituted a program several decades ago, designed to lift all people out of poverty, called "welfare". Yet another government entitlement program that is failing. Why? Because when you start giving handouts, instead of giving a hand up, you end up punishing producers (taxes) in order to reward consumers (welfare recipients who are able to work but, hey, why bother, I can get free money if I do not...).

I found the quote I was looking for the other day, attributed to Alexander Tyler, Edinborough, Scotland, 1787 - though there is apparently some question about whether or not it is actually his:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage". Regardless of who said it - look around and tell me where you think we are in this process. Then, tell me more government intervention, more cradle to grave government handouts, are a good thing.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:39 PM

No grafitti if stores werent' open on Sunday? Yeah right, cause no one ever buys something on Saturday to use later.

-- Posted by all_i_hear_is_blah_blah on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:39 PM


For the record, I was not the one who reported a complaint...it was the other poster who hit the button. But still it was MY private information that was released to him in the email from the webmaster.

My message to the newspaper is....if you can't secure your site as promised...close it down or hire more professional help.

-- Posted by BABE on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:47 PM


Great quote, but I don't think it's an individual thing. If you look at Democracy (what this country promotes) I would say that "The Country is in the "Complacency-Apathy" section, if not at least in the Abundance and Greed catagory.

Make no mistake, we are where we are as a country. No individual put us here. If memory serves me correctly, I think Jefferson had the same views on democracy being a road to failure.


Back to the Jungian topic, my favorite songwriter, Dave Carter, utilized Jungian philosophy in writing songs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Carter

I spent 16 weeks researching Carter and finished a very lengthy essay, in fact I have debated on writing a book. Anyway, I spent quite a bit of time researching Carl Jung too. I'm not dissing Freud, but became a bigger fan of Jung after reading his works.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:50 PM

Speaking of reading, has anyone read the book, The Last Lecture by Randy Pausch?

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 3:53 PM

Me'lange, it just kind of goes with the point about using "screen names" instead of real names in the forum. I would grant you that "bad bahavior" problems would be COMPLETELY avoided if we had to utilize our real names.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 4:00 PM

Me'lange, there is metered parking in the back of Kent Library, very close to the door. Also, they can give you a "walmart" bag to put your books in. LOL

The problem is...getting that metered parking is "competitive." Thank god I have a Gold Tag. LOL

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 4:03 PM


FYI, the books on Freud and Jung at Kent will be OLDER than Freud and Jung. LOL. Wear a dust mask. LOL

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 4:04 PM


I'm very afraid we will soon see a slide into the apathy-dependency phase. Too many people have learned they can get their hands on the treasury, businesses and individuals alike, if they just keep the same losers in power. Too many others have become apathetic. To illustrate: This is a public forum. I would bet substantially more than 5000 people a day read what is going on here. And look how few of us actually take the time to share our views and engage in discussion. I even write my elected officials from time to time to share my views - for all the good it does. We are such a small percentage of the population taking part here, as time permits, and in trying to influence our government. Apathy? Oh, yes, in Spades! Dependency? An ever growing number of Americans want Uncle to hold their hands from cradle to grave. I just hope that those who wish to achieve the American Dream, on their own, without guv'ment intervention, continue to move forward and triumph in the end.

It's been a pleasure as always, but I really gotta get some more work done today.

Stay the course!

I'm out.

-- Posted by LittleMac on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 4:06 PM


At points I agree with what you are saying. I especially agree with what you are talking about. Many MANY times I email Nathan Cooper and Jason Crowell. All they offered was excuses, no solutions.

Speaking of "Business Welfare," the same can be said for these lame duck politicians who milk the system without term limits. We're basically giving them a "welfare" check for telling us, "No. We can't do that because...."

If we're going to make "social" cuts, then they need to lead by example and start at the top. You, me, and everyone else in this room deserves the same level of healthcare and coverage that anyone in the congress or senate receives. There's no disputing that.

LOL...**Fore Warned** If any of you defend the politicians rights to receive all this "Porky Political Welfare" be prepared to get an ear full...or at least an eye full.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 4:25 PM

Jerry66, Melange, LittleMack, and SWBG,

Been reading your posts on UHC and just have a couple of questions and depending on the answers, will post another question later.

Would those currently on Medicare and Medicade be removed from those programs with UHC? Actually wouldn't Medicare and Medicade be obsolete with a UHC system?

And, would those receiving SS and welfare (forgetting the 5 year supposed lifetime benifit limit) be required to pay the same amount out of their checks as those working?

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 4:29 PM

what's wrong with someone using their real name ?

i use Rick Scaggs all of the time without any trouble

-- Posted by ..Rick on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 5:21 PM

Mr Nall,

So you are saying that those that voted for Clinton got a ****** from Monica? I guess I was out the day she showed up at my house.

I'm just razzing you. I get what you are saying, provided you mean if they are re-elected after finding out they were liars for example, right?

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 5:24 PM


But didn't you also post under 'bloodyhand'?? Just asking. I have no room to talk I do not post under my real name. I used to post under my real name, but found that too weird when someone tracked me down from here by using my real name. Nothing illegal, just kind of creepy.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 5:28 PM

yep , i started out as bloodyhand but changed to my real name ....BTW , this explains my avatar

-- Posted by ..Rick on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 5:33 PM


Thanks, actually that's how I remembered your original posting name, by your avitar. lol

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 5:38 PM

Mr Nall,

Wow, guess that means those that voted for Bush have the blood of those killed in Iraq and Afganistan on their hands. Though as American's, I thought we were all responsible being that America is the leader in the War on Terror. Responsible might not be the right word, but can't think of a better one right now. Could get into alot of grey areas with who and who isn't responsible for acts of those they may have or may not have voted for. Definately not anything I learned in my high school civics class.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 6:01 PM

Mr Nall,

I will say I am 100 percent in agreement about wanting someone better then Monica. Also, unless there is something I don't know, kind of short changes the women that voted for Clinton. LMAO (sorry couldn't resist)

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 6:02 PM


Those are valid questions that I can't honestly answer without further research. Logically, you would think that some of those programs would become obsolete with the implimentation of UHC. Thinking about it, "Some" would probably be the answer.

Pups, you have me thinking now. You would think that a concerned government (Pro or Con) would publicly investigate these options. The "lack" of investigating options (to me) solidifies that "Corporate America" is behind the stifling of major movements that would educate the public.

The fact that the "CONS" haven't outwardly made a statement against UHC is even more concerning. (I'm not talking about the individuals in this forum either, I'm talking about the power players) Is there something they are wanting to hide? Or are they just protecting their investments?

I would GLADLY attend any academic forums investigating other Healthcare options, the fact is...no one else is offering anything else up.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 6:07 PM


That is a super avatar--impressive photography, whoever did it. Wasn't it rather tedious typing your post, though? LOL


Lost your cow? So sorry to hear that, and sorry it ended up in LittleMac's...um...field of corn? One of the first Spanish phrases I learned (from a Mexican friend) over 2 decades ago was "Donde esta el bano"...very important when traveling around in Mexico! LOL


Sorry to hear that the newspaper is revealing poster's names and e-mail addresses. There are some on here who have posted their own identities, and that's fine if they're comfortable with it. However, many might not prefer to expose their identities to some of the odd personalities who can get so personal and negative, and yes, sometimes even threatening. Personal safety should be considered.

If this comment forum were set up to utilitize personal identification and it was understood by all that their names would be public, that would be another matter, as everyone would have a choice of whether or not to participate. As it is, it appears that personal info would not be shared by the newspaper. IMHO, needing to know the identity of all the posters in a forum set up as this one is to use screen names is just...no offense, but...nosy more than anything.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 6:35 PM

Thanks Melange and Jerry. I was just thinking those questions, because some view UHC as another hand out or take from me to give to thee. But was doing some thinking and thought that if UHC passed or started there wouldn't be a need for Medicare or Medicade since UHC would incompass those on those programs.

I have another theory to discuss, but have to leave the office for a bit. Hope you guys are here later when I get back.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 6:49 PM

It seems as though the Webmeister still has some annoying web weasels to eradicate. Did anyone figure out what the major malfunction was last Sunday? I took a peek at the site and it looked like it got nuked. So I figured the heck with that noise and bailed out.

Not to crank the paranoia level up any higher than allowed for fun & profit, I'm wondering about something else regarding this site. Since we must register with our names, addresses, etc, might there be a disgruntled insider at the paper who gets his or her kicks out of exposing folks' identities, particularly of those they may not like? Hmmmmm?? Now that's spooky...ooOOOoooo! Oh well.

-- Posted by Herr_Hauptmann_DES on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 7:13 PM

James Nall,

I'm happy as long as you were planting crops or growing hogs. After all, that is what farmland is far correct?

I’m familiar with that program, and unfortunately...I know those who DO utilize that option. Again, if my memory serves me correct it was a subsidy put into place right before or during the depression.

(Something to do with the fact that after WWII we didn't need to send as much crops over seas. when this happened, the big farms that the government had told everyone to get, because exporting was going to be big business we're going broke because they were growing TO MUCH produce and there wasn’t enough people to buy the produce. Then, the government implemented this plan to pay the farmer to NOT farm his land. Some folks say this was the reason we had the “Great Depression.”

Anyway Nall, no hard feelings....I think we all are frustrated at certain points. Unfortunately, no one in D.C. really cares what you or I think at this point. We’re just fish in a barrel my friend.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 7:19 PM

Pups, I'll be waiting with baited breath.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 7:30 PM

A little humor to soften the blows:


-- Posted by BoratObama on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 7:52 PM


Ok, here goes. And keeping in mind these are just numbers I put together since I have no real numbers to go by.

Current system: A person makes $30,000 a year and currently pays 2% of gross income for Employer insurance plan with 80/20 and 250 deductable (30,000 x .02 = 600). Employer pays 6% or gross pay of employee to plan. (30,000 x .06 = 1,800) Employer has 2,200 employees to insure (1,800 x 2,200 = 3,960,000.00 in employer cost for plan)

Possible UHC system: Same employee pays 1% of gross income (30,000 x .01 = 300) for UHC. Employer pays nothing. Employee saves 300 dollars a year and Employer saves 3,960,000 dollars a year.

The reason I only did 1% for UHC and no employer match is because if all pay 1% of income reguardless if it is from employment, SS, retirement fund, or welfare check. Wouldn't that have (with figures provided today by other) 52 million people from Medicare, 20 million people on Medicaid (original number was 42 million, but lets say 22 million are nonworking children) and 50 million uninsured paying into UHC. Also I know we pay more then 1% of our paycheck to Medicare/Medicaid alot of those on those programs don't pay taxes currently that would. Making UHC not a hand out, but a hand up?

Don't know if any of that makes sense, but something I was thinking about. And again, not saying this is accurate, just an idea.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:06 PM


Good numbers, as expected on my behalf...it's a win-win for the employer. (Their only fear is they know the employees will know they have more money to give raises, which I figure is their major hang-up.)

Your numbers sound reasonable to me, but I am sure some of our "forum experts" will rebute the it. LOL

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:21 PM


My only concern is that the numbers are just off the top of my head, and like you have said no one from either side has given actuall numbers one way or the other.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:39 PM

Who Me?

Is that the cost of the surgery paid by medicare or is that someone's bill who has insurance (before insurance pays) or is that self pay total?

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:41 PM

Who Me?

Ooops I forgot to ask, is that just the facility charge for the surgery or does that include the surgeon, anesthesia, anesthesiolgist, and radiologist?

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 8:45 PM

Who me, I can tell you have the answer at hand...why don't you enlighten us. Glad to see the number on the cost of a spinal surgery though. That will be another one we can all avoid.

-- Posted by Proud_Democrat on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:02 PM

Who Me?

Just one more thought. I'm thinking, and I could be wrong, but you are pointing out that Medicare might pay 21,000 for a spinal surgery, but that is just what they think is reasonable for the proceedure, not taking into account the cost to the facility for overhead such as pay for nurses, gurneys, lighting, air conditioning, sponges, soap, billing personel, housekeeping and others? Am I close?

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:19 PM

Who Me?,

So 21,500 was what you or I would be charged for the surgery, but Medicare only paid 10,000? Actually the 10,000 probably paid the 'cost' of the surgery, but the hospital would charge you and I more so they make up for those that don't pay at all. Not saying the hospital doesn't write off the other 11,500 as a loss.

Don't get me wrong, I know businesses, even not for profit businesses, have to make money or they wouldn't be in business.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 9:53 PM


I know you pay for your employee's insurance plan, but would you be willing to let me know the percentage of your cost with yearly income of your employees. Meaning do you pay more then 6% of their wages for your plan? Just because I know you are responsible for the policy payment and my figures from earlier about what the employer pays was a guess.

Who Me?

Same question to you, because you are a business owner as well and I believe you said you offer insurance to your employees.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:04 PM


Oh and I realize that not all employees earn the same income in a business and some opt out and others include family. Man, no wonder I'm not a financial advisor. This numbers stuff can cause a head ache. lol

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Apr 17, 2008, at 10:08 PM

Pups, I'll pull last December's P&L and take a look at our health insurance costs as a percentage of wages. I am interested in knowing that figure myself.

I have a relatively young, male work force which really helps lower my premiums. Nearly 25% of our monthly premium is consumed by four of my older employees who have been with us for years. I don't like it, but it is a fact of life I must deal with.

-- Posted by Instructor_aka____________ on Fri, Apr 18, 2008, at 1:18 AM

By the way Pups, 1% of all income would not even come close to paying for UHC.

-- Posted by Instructor_aka____________ on Fri, Apr 18, 2008, at 1:20 AM

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