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Speak Out 1/17/08

Thursday, January 17, 2008

Ethanol fallout

ANYONE WITH adequate ability to reason realizes that food prices have and will continue to increase due to ethanol, which is bad for our economy. The government, which is essentially us citizens, are subsidizing the production of ethanol. Instead we should be drilling more, building more refineries and moving toward nuclear power like the French. Ethanol has been backed by our politicians because it gave them an easy way to say that they are doing something about the high price of fuel. But fuel prices have not decreased because of ethanol, and food prices will continue to skyrocket. Give it a year or two and we may see that many people will not be able to purchase as much milk, eggs and meat as they would like or need to eat.

Good for the economy

EVERYONE KNOWS that Saudi Arabia is an exporter of oil. And everyone knows that it benefits Saudi Arabia when the price of oil goes up to record levels. It is good for their country. In a like manner, the U.S. exports grain. It benefits the U.S. when our grain prices go up to record levels and we keep exporting for foreign money. It is good for the U.S. that corn prices are up and China is buying our corn. It makes the entire economy better.

Protect the children

IN REGARD to the smoking ban in Illinois: Parents should be banned from smoking around their children. Secondhand smoke causes ear infections as well as breathing problems and who knows what else. I don't think anyone should have to be subjected to smoke, least of all young children who have no say.

Planet doctors

I AM a geologist. My research specialty is in paleoclimate. A recent comment claimed Al Gore is portraying climate change as something new. We "rabid environmentalists" are not trying to be fearmongers. It doesn't matter if global warming is anthropogenic or not. Climate change causes extinctions, and the fact is Earth's atmosphere is changing rapidly. This could put many modern life forms in a precarious position. The point isn't to place blame. We accept that some action needs to be taken in order to preserve ourselves. If that means cutting down emissions, so be it. We aren't wasting tax dollars. Think of us as doctors for the planet. We're trying to save lives. That's ultimately the point of scientific research, after all.

Corn subsidies

"NONE OF the government subsidies for the making of ethanol goes to the farmer or the plant that makes the ethanol." True enough. However, coffers full of subsidies go to corn farmers for raising the crop, and corn is used in the making of ethanol. True?

Fact Check
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Homeless Vet

I know that there lot of your not going to like what I am about to say.

But here it is any way this Goverment is all the time asking the people of this Nations to help other countrys and Nations by sending are money over sea to them for food and anything as that they may need to help them, But no one take the time to look at are own country are look around at the thousands of homeless that are on are street within all of are citys and State's of this nations no one went to admitt that there are thousands of are own people doing without home , food and other items that they may need to live even are own Goverment has close there eyes to this by not caring for them and about them, It time for us all to begin caring for are own people and quit worry about all the other people in other countrys, you can look at any major city in this Nations an found a homeless vet on the street there doing without , but still no one care or went to say any thing about this are them being out there they just went to call them bums, tramps , beggers and worthless people .

But still when we needed some one to fight a war some place for us they was all heros than , but now that they are not needed they become bum, tramps and worthless to us all.

Let pull are heads out of the sand and begain helping them the way it should had been in the first place and get them off the street and into some place that they can call there homes like we all have here in this nations they was good enough to fight for us , lets be good enough to see to it that they have a home of there own and a warm place to sleep on cold nights this go for all of your so call christians also your can play a big part in helping do this , so let us all stand up and begain helping are own people that has given so much of there life for this country snd stop worrying about other country so much.

Because one one time they was just like you and me lets give them there life back and show that we do care for are Vet in the right way , not just saying we care really show it .

again I know that there some that is not going to like this and all that I have to say about that, that this is the truth and if that hurt your feeling I don't really care

-- Posted by Thunder1814 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 3:03 AM

Funny Rabbit...Last night you wrote: "Thanks for the invite but...Not into talking to people who think this country sucks."

I was hesitant to meet some of the group at lunch...but you know what? They're some of the finest people I have ever met (even if I don't always agree with them)!

And PUPS...ignore lengthy, getting-too-personal comments. You're above that, you know. If some of last night keeps up, I'm going to join Bethie and we'll use her whips on them! Sorry, Girl Chat.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 3:03 AM

Protect the children (thank you),

Perfect example of giving an inch, taking a mile! As a smoker, I have stated several times that I have NO problem with smoking bans designed like IL's new ban. You brought an important point to MY attention, Some will never be happy until every single right (smoking, french fries, native american mascots, forum posting, SUV's, rock climbing, fair rides, cussing, spiritual choice, etc etc etc) is taken away. fyi...I haven't smoked when children are nearby for over 20 years, we do not need a law! (If SOME non-smokers were not so rude, they may find smokers very accommodating.)

I formally withdraw my support for smoking bans designed like IL. (Non-smokers can thank this poster for my change of heart.)

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:53 AM

Good for the economy

Yes, the economy is just dandy. Couldn't be better. We don't owe anyone and have not a care in the world.

America was the largest creditor nation in the world. When others needed to borrow money, they came to us. Now, we are the biggest beggar nation in the world. We owe everybody, including the Communist Chinese.

They will want to be paid someday. The only thing that we have left, is our resources. The Chinese and the Arabs are buying into our financial institutions, and our mines. We are selling it all off. Everything is for sale. Our politicians, even our roads. The Republican governor of Indiana sold off the Indiana Tollway to a company owned Spaniards and Austrailians.

We used to feed the world. Now we import a large percentage of our food.

We are not the greatest nation in the world. We are not the most wealthy nation, if you are talking about widely distributed wealth among the people. If you are talking about a few rich billionaires, they we rank up there with the wealthy, but that does nothing for you or the rest of us.

We are not the best educated.

We do not have the highest living standard.

We are a pathetic shell of a once great nation.

Those who think otherwise have a false sense of patriotism and are living in the past.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 6:58 AM

This destruction of America happened while everyone slept. Comforted by bumper stickers that read, "Proud to be an American," "These colors don't run," "American Pride," and you adorned yoru cars with those Communist Chinese made Amereican flags, flapping wildly in the breeze as you motored around letting everyone know that you were an "Amarerukan."

Pride is a sin. What has happend to this country is partially your fault because you failed to speak up. You believed your own hype about being the best. Well, your children score below third world countries in Math and Science. Math tutors from India now go on line to help your little prince or princess figure out simple math problems. You have given your children all the material goods in the world. Either to shut them up, keep them off your back, leave you in peace, or, or to buy their love. They have turned out to be rotten, lazy, dumbded down kids who cannot compete in America, much less in the world.

It is true that some of the middle eastern nations are getting rich off of the high price of oil, but if you think that they control the price of oil, you are seriously mistaken.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 7:06 AM


If you really want to see the history of how this nation has cared for it's war veterans, take a gander at a PBS documentary, called "Bonus Army."

A former hero of mine, McArthur, rampaged through the Bonus Amry encampment in D.C. back during the depression. They were all WWI veterans. Herbert Hoover gave the order to clear them out, and McArthur did his "duty" to his commander in cheif, but not his nation. It is really a tellling piece with film footage of that era. He fired tear gas at them, fixed bayonets, and set their encampment ablaze. All they were doing was peacefully assesmbling, and petitioning their government for redress of their greivances.

Google Bonus Amry if you can't see the PBS piece. The Rerpublicans in Hoovers adminstrtion, called them "communists." See, need to label someone before you kill or harm them. It makes it go over better with the public. They wouldn't like it if you killed decorarted thousands of WWI war veterans, but, if you killed communists, now, that's a different matter. Propaganda, Thunder1814. It's all lies, denials, and spin, spin, spin. Nothing new about it in American govenrment. We sure aren't the virginal little, goodie two shoes natioin that we have dreamed up for ourselves in oour own minds. If you think that we have a good government, ask a Cherokee.

The main trouble with America, is that we have no sense of introspection. We don't look inward and take serious account of our actions. No wonder the world hates us. The only nations that like us are Albania, Fiji, Israel and a couple other nations that our kids couldn't find on a map.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 7:19 AM


Whips are not necessary, as I am not into S&M, or, anything kinky. :)

Pupslover erred, so, I posted his two comments which are obviously inconsistant. No big deal. But, when it comes to Iraq, I am through being nice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when they want to just forget the lies that got us there and start from a point that they select, or, feel that the Iraqi people are grateful to the war mongerers for invading their country, taking their oil and their historic treasures, and klling their family members, I feel that their error needs to be pointed out to them.

If we don't stop this now, the next president will feel that he, or, she has the power to wage war against a nation who has not harmed us, and make their friends stinking rich, too. Americans die when that happens. The people of the nation that the war mongerers attack die, as well. It amazes me how people who say that they are Christian can justify the murder of innocent women, children, and men, and think that their nutty excuses are going to appease an angry God when they come before Him for judgment. I guess that they consider the Commandments to love your neighbor, to not covet thy neighbors goods, and, most of all, to not murder, to be old fashioned. They got that happy talk, prosperity religion. But, they will be damned when they come before God, because His commandments have not changed one iota.

Make no mistake, the war mongerers are in this for the long haul. War is a great profit center. There is no downside to it for them. Their kids won't be going to war, their kids will counting all the money that good ole dad made on the blood of Americans and our supposed enemy. It is all gain, and no loss. It's a win, win. That is why if we don't stop them, they will continue these wars of profit and empire for decades to come, or, until Russia, China and India meet us on the battleflied and clean our clock.

Aircraft carriers are almost oblsolete. We depend upon carriers to impose our tyranny on the world. China has submarines, bought with your Wal-Mart dollars, that pop up right behind a US Carrier and they will not know it was there. The Russians have technology in Missiles, subs, and aircraft that is the equal, and in some instances better than ours. They have it, and, now, thanks to globalism, so do the Chinese.

If you think that Mexico is our friend, in which World War were they our ally?

We better wake up and take stock of where we are in the world and stop being the bully. Our time on the playground is coming, and you will not ever feel the same once we have been defeated in a manner that we cannot ignore, or, excuse as a fluke.

Just my opinion.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 7:36 AM

Smoking ban

I smoke, my husband smokes however we do not smoke in our house because we have small children, we do not smoke when out in a restaraunt for the sake of our children and others as well however we do this out of respect not because we are told to. Every non smoker wants to blame smoking on the rising cost of health care, every breathing ailment known to man etc when in fact many people develop breathing problems from pollutants in the air. The government has no right to tell someone where they can and can't smoke only the owner of the business should be allowed to make that choice no one says you have to go into a place that allows smoking but many non smokers chose to do so. What I want to know is when someone is going to start putting all the high taxes on alchohol. maybe liquir doesn't cause lung problems but what about the dietary and liver problems, what about all the medical bills paid out for a child that was hit by a drunk driver and lives in a wheelchair. Smoking is not the only "health" issue however it seems to be the one everyone blames. Many smokers as I have tried to quit many times but IT IS AN ADDICTION just as an alcholholic battles his addiction smokers do as well. If the government would help treat it instead of taking away the rights of the people that voted them into office a lot more people would be behind them.

-- Posted by semoangel70 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 7:39 AM

Happy Birthday, Ben!

By the way, there are only two more shopping days left before Robert E. Lee's Birthday, and only 21 shopping days left before Jeb Sturat's birthday on February 6th.

Gas mask filters, mag pouches, and mags, are great, inexpensive gifts to give family and friends as we celebrate these to these two birthday holidays.

By the way, Ben Franklin drank beer. A gift of beer today, would be very nice.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:01 AM


I'm going to cut and paste from your post for my points.

"...or, feel that the Iraqi people are grateful to the war mongerers for invading their country, taking their oil and their historic treasures, and klling their family members, I feel that their error needs to be pointed out to them"

Gosh there is so much in just that little clip. Let me start from the beginning. First off even the term "Iraqi people" usually comes from someone whos never been there. It would be like saying the "Somali people or the Yugoslavian people" Thats a term you will not hear on the streets of Baghdad. Yes the Shia are glad to be rid of the previous gov/t. I should say were glad, I haven't lived there in three years. The Asyrians, Kurds and Bedouins are pleased too. The Sunnis are not. They never have been. They won't be. Secondly we havne't "taken their oil". Far from it. We should be but we don't seem to have the onions necessary so we have paid for this entire war on the backs of the taxpayer. We didn't take their "historic treasures" what we did do was not post guard quick enough on the sites and they were looted by the people that lived/worked there. Yes we have killed many many people. There have been times that I felt things could have been done much better but there again I was only a squad leader and not a general.

Mike I fought in Iraq twice. I know that your sitting in your chair rooting for the "freedom fighters" as you call them and hoping that your countrymen get killed. I don't know how you do that but that is your freedom and good men and women have died to give you that right. But that same right extends to me and I know from experience on the ground over there that things are not as you paint them. I don't know from where your hate for this country comes from or I should say your hate for its service members but it is uncalled for.

-- Posted by Donnie on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:02 AM

You have a right to be proud and pleased with your children's accomplishments, but, your children aside, have you never seen, or, heard children who were so spoiled rotten that their parents catered to their every whim, and waited on them like a servant? The parents had long ago given up being parents and opted to become their children's cool "friends." Have you never seen that? I have. So often that it helped mould my cynicism about this nations future.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:13 AM

**rattles her whips and chains**

I'm with you Guru---

I've been lurking because it suddenly got way too personal. And if it's that personal--they won't get my point anyway.

Plus--I look at blog entries--

NOT books. If it's four screens long...I'm skim reading you at best. =P

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:15 AM


I am not into record keeping. I do read the posts. When you said that you were Catholic, that bit of information did stay with me.

No need to be unpleasant. However, since you did mention Farmington, perhaps you could show me around the campus sometime, and put in a good word for me to get your old room?

Dominus Vobiscum, Pax Vobiscum.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:18 AM

**rattles her whips and chains**

I'm with you Guru--

I've been lurking because it has gotten way too personal--

they won't get my point if it's that personal.

Plus--I look at blog entries--

NOT books. If it's four screens long...I'm skim reading you at best. =P

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:18 AM

Sorry for the double post...I got an error that shut down my page the first time and prevented seeing that it posted.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:19 AM

Donnie, Thank you for sharing your knowledge of what has/is actually occuring in Iraq! Unfortunately, I doubt you will change the minds of those who prefer to see things differently.

Thank you to all who have proudly served, AND continue to HONOR our very blessed country by showing respect for those in uniform! (I hope to remember to say a special thanks the next time I dine out or visit a store...being thankful that my car did not run over an IED or a suicide bomber didn't blow the place up.)

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:23 AM


I highly doubt we have gotten your opinion. You just cut and paste and run.

-- Posted by gehagge on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:43 AM


There are over 150 tribes in Iraq, so, please forgive me if I do not name them all, and just say, the "Iraqi People." I am working on making my posts more brief, but if you insist that I name them all, instead of just saying the Iraqi people, as one would say the American people, or, the people of Mexico, the people in China, the French people, well, I will consider it.

In additiion to removing a strong national leader who would not along with the New World Order, there were many other reasons that the neocons went to war against the people of Iraq. Oil, and oil profits was one of the main reasons. The reason that George W. Bush did not accept the Iraq Study Group plan, was that it did not impose the oil laws upon the Iraq government and the Iraqi people. The oil laws are very important. They will give these international oil companies based in the US, cronies of Cheney and Bush, lopsided rights to Iraqi oil. Iraq will get **** little, as these agreements are set up to provide the oil companies with a very lucrative, non-traditonal type of agreement for existing oil.

To same time, may I cut and paste?

"Iraqi Oil Agreement Reveals the True Winners in Iraq"

Washington Dispatch: The new oil revenue-sharing agreement is a giveaway to Big Oil and could end up tearing apart the country.

By James Ridgeway

March 1, 2007

The Iraqi oil deal set to go before the country's parliament next month could spell the end of the country as a nation state, and signals a major Bush victory in the war. The proposed law not only opens the door to the big international oil companies, but offers them lucrative contract deals, and even a place on the national oil board that will run the industry.

The Byzantine scheme for dividing up oil revenues on the basis of population is little more than a facade for the biggest rip off of resources since the British barged into Mesopotamia more than a century ago.

This law sanctions contracts between Iraq's individual regions and foreign oil companies. It effectively puts an end to a nationalized petroleum industry that has provided most of the country's revenue. Over time, the oil revenues might sustain an independent Kurdistan, along with a Shia state, and a Sunni state (though the Sunnis don't have much oil, at least among the known Iraqi reserves). The law sets up a system that opens the door for foreign companies to make the country's oil policy. A new federal Oil and Gas Council is to assist the Council of Ministers, "in coordination with the producing provinces and regions." This council is to include the prime minister and other cabinet members, directors of the central bank, representatives from the various regions, and "executive managers from important related petroleum companies, including the national Iraqi oil company and the oil marketing company."


The actual law


The Iraqis have every right to resist and to kill the occupiers. We would do the same thing if America was occupied by force or deception. It is a legitimate resistance. If you prefer to believe it is a few hundred "dead enders," or, "Saddam hard liners", then excuse me while I laugh out loud. I would rather that no Americans be killed, I would rather that no Iraqi's be killed either. That is why I would like for American troops to return to their barracks in the US. I cannot blame Iraqi's for killing occupation troops, because it is not their fault. If the troops were in their barracks in Ft. Campbell, Ft. Leonard Wood, and Camp LeJune, then, not a hair on their head would be harmed by an Iraqi. I think that sounds fair.

Oh, yeah, South Korea is going to get increasingly stinky. I would be surprised if American troops were invited to leave, sometime soon.

You wouldn't like it at all if I meddled in your business, and neither do the majority of the Iraqis. We need to stay home and mind our own business. Everyone would a lot more happy, then, and we would have a hell of a lot more friends.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:54 AM

That post was right on cue! Kudos for me!

-- Posted by gehagge on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:03 AM

I would rather rehash the cost/benefit of th 1/2 cent sales tax or disucuss what happened to the dock at the Red Star Landing, or discuss the merits of rebuilding downtown or any of a number of local topics.

Nothing personal but I rather like the more local topics as I feel I have a bit more to say or control in the topics and possible outcomes.

That being said I have more and more of a feeling that ethanol is a farce. I do not think any of these plants proposed in the area will ever be built.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:11 AM

I am glad that some posters have seen from the speak out comments that many people are not going to happy just "banning" a little--they are going to ban and ban and ban until it's something you enjoy or want..and then they are going to ban a little more.

All for your protection of course.

*makes a face*

I don't need protecting from smoke, soda, food, medication--

I have the freedom to choose what I do and don't do.

And to remove myself from those who participate in something that I don't wish to partake in.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:25 AM

The US Military is not something to be "loved." The military is made up of many individuals. Perhaps you would like to say a special thank you to Marine Corporal Cesar Armando L. for his service. The fact that he murdered a fellow Marine, splattered her blood all over the walls and ceiling of a room in his home, then burned her and her fetus in a pit in the backyard of his Jacksonville home, then, go ahead. The military is not a person, it is a thing. Inside the thing are people. Some of those people are great human beings who, also, happen to be soldiers, Marines, sailors, or, airmen. However, inside that thing, called the military are other people who, like Cesar, you may think otherwise about hanging out with on a regular basis.

"....The data indicate that from 2003 through 2006, the military allowed 4,230 convicted felons to enlist under the "moral waivers" program, which enables otherwise unqualified candidates to serve. In addition, 43,977 individuals convicted of serious misdemeanors such as assault were permitted to enlist under the moral waivers program during that period, as were 58,561 illegal drug abusers. In the Army, allowable offenses include making terrorist threats, murder, and kidnapping." http://www.palmcenter.org/press/dadt/rel...

This study did not count the number of people who are druggies that their recruiter coached them on how to pass the drug test with a clean bill of health.

So, there are good people in the military, and there are not so good people. All of them did not join the military to do duty to God and Country. Just because some of the killers were found "not guilty" by a military court, does not mean that they were innocent of killing those Iraqi civilians in cold blood.

I wonder if you would be so thankful, so complimentary if it was your brother, or, son and his wife who were killed, their fifteen year old daughter raped, and killed, along with her younger sister.

I wonder if you would be glad to join the military and go to Iraq and see how soon it is before you are raped by a fellow soldier, or, Marine? http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/...



Just google something like "rape soldier Iraq." Sure you will get lots of stories about Americans raping and killing Iraqi women and children, but just ignore them. Look for the stories about Americans raping their fellow soldiers. There is a good link to a story in SALON magazine, but I was having trouble capturing it.

So, agreed? The military is a thing. The thing is made up of good people and bad people. Not all of them joined to "serve" their country.

By the way, since this was a war built on lies from the get go by the commander in cheif, this is an illegitimate war, an unConstitutional war and an unChristian one. If war can be "christian" at all, this is not the one. No one in Iraq is there defending your freedom, or, keeping you or anyone else safe from IED's here in the US. If there were terrorist cells, other than the Jewish Defense League terror group that I mentioned last week, then they would have struck by now. They could be shooting people in malls, on the golf course, fire bombing Wall Street, any number of things. I personally believe that the whole 9-11 thing was an inside job to bring about the concessions that we have given to our government, and to allow them to proceed with their empire scheme and attack on Iraq. I know that many of you do not share my view, that is fine. But, don't go around saying that they are there to fight them there so we won't have to fight them here, or, that they are fighting for my freedom to voice my opinion in Speak Out, because they are not. Saddam Hussein was no threat to me, nor, my freedoms. Iraq was not a threat to me, nor, to you. To keep saying things like that, only make you look foolish, and gulible.

Support the troops, bring them home, now. If you think that God will accept your silly excuse of "fighting for freedom," then you are not familiar with God's Law, the Ten Commandments.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:31 AM

short white bald guy, We seem to think alike with regard to local verse world-wide issues and our control over the situations. Hope you are feeling better today!

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:33 AM


That was a very grown up thing to say. Wish others believed as you do. I call them the "be nice" crowd, or, the "do it for the children" crowd. There are words that they won't want you to say, because it might offend someone.

Why do you think that there seems to be a never ending list of things that some people, especially, some think tank or agenda driven group wants banned?

How can we say that we are a free people, if you can't smoke in your car, can't do this, can't do that?

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:36 AM

Thank you for the compliment and I'm glad you see my point.

I'm just going to refrain on debate about Iraq today--because while I respect your right to an opinion--I very much disagree and it's on too personal of a level to debate in an intelligent manner.

So it's better left alone.

Anyone else glad we didn't get a bunch of sleet?!

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:47 AM

Oh, yeah. If president Huckabee, Hillary, or, the Republican US Supreme Court decides that what you have been taught all your life in school about your 2nd Amendment rights to keep and bear arms, for your defense and the defense of the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and Domestic, then he will send the US military to your door to take your guns at the end of a bayonet, and by all force, including killing you to get it.

Don't think that for a minute that the US military is going to refuse to collect your guns,if orderded to do so. They have lots of experience in kicking in doors in Kosovo, Bosnia, and Iraq. Especially, in Iraq, they have kicked in the doors of mostly Sunni homes, and taken their legal firearms. Under that "butcher of baghdad," Saddam Hussein, and Iraqi law, it was legal for Iraqi's to own firearms. But, along comes the invaders, the occupiers and kicks in their doors, and takes their legal guns leaving them defenseless aginst the US supported Shia militias and paramilitary groups, gangs of Shia thugs who came to the homes of the Sunni's took away the men, executed them and dumped their bodies all around Bagdhad. It is still happening. Not on a grand a scale as before this wonderous "surge," but each day in Bagdhad, more bodies of murdered Sunni men and young boys are found.

So, the US military will follow it's orders. Do you think that a Mexican who was recruited in Mexico to go to a LA school by the Marines and then join the Corps, or, a a felon, or, a druggie, is going to be awe inspired by the US Constitution and refuse an order to kick in your door?

The estimates in my previous post come from a study. CNN did a piece on this, as well. Their estimate was that there were over 150,000 convicted felons in the US ARMY.

The Republican US Supreme Court, the same court that said that you don't own your home, is going to take up a 2nd Amendment case. What do you want to bet that it echos the sentiment of several within the Bush adminstration, that you have a "right" to own a gun, but the "state" has the right to make rules to protect the "state." That was John Ashcroft's opinion.

Keep dreaming.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:57 AM


While I agree with your post because I too am leary of too much regulation, just for debate I believe the government has a role to help protect the citizens from themselves and coporations looking to exploit us.

For instance you mentioned medication. I do not think you implied that there should not be regulations on medications.

I think some of the regulations on cigarettes has been good for the country. I remember as a kid and when I had an appt. with the doctor he would come in the room smoking a cigarette and he and my mother would both sit and smoke while I was examined! Could you imagine that today? Without some intervention from the government those things would still be going on.

I think it is a balancing act as to where to draw the line. I am not always sure where to draw it but that is what makes debate worth having.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 9:59 AM


I am glad we were not blessed with sleet, but I would welcome a good ole' fashion snow storm. (I appear to be missing IA's winters. uh oh)

Like you, I try to avoid the Iraq debate as some find it necessary to be disrespectful of those who are currently serving. Those comments are hurtful and hit way to close to home.

How are you and the little one feeling today?

BTW...In case you (those in Cape) missed it, today's paper had an article about Cape's School Board narrowing down the prospective candidates for the new superintendent. It did not offer much information, other than they have narrowed the field to 3 and won't be sharing who they are.

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:04 AM

I have been watching the banter back and forth between non-smokers and smokers. It would be wonderful if the two sides could honestly debate, but that would require one side openly listening and responding. Therefore, I would like to add this perspective.

We (the people)have speed limits set to protect the innoncent and enforce safety.

We have laws that prohibit driving while under the influence to protect and enforce safety.

This new ban is written with the same sort of reasoning. It was not put into place to demean smokers (who already seem to have a "chip" on their shoulder). It is to protect the public who value their lives (and lungs) and children who are unable to make informed decisions at this point in their lives.

If you smoke, please follow semoangel's lead and consider the ones around you.

-- Posted by Reasoning on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:04 AM

Understood, but I really don't see how anyone can justify killing men, women, and children who never harmed you, me, or, this nation.

They have the same blood as you and I. They have families. Iraq was the most prosperous economy in the Middle East until GHW Bush attacked the in the so called Gulf War.

Especially, there is no justification that a Christian could make, because God is very clear on this point. No coveting of thy neighbors goods, no bearing false witness, no stealing, no murdering. How any so-called Christian could come to a justification for what was done, and still is being done in Iraq, I clearly cannot see. There is no wiggle room. No murder. Thou shall not steal, covet, or bear false witness. That is pretty straight talk.

But, if it is peace that you desire, you have your wish. No argument here. People are entitled to their opinions, but Iraq is not an ice cream flavor. There is no right or wrong answer when we are each asked our favorite ice creams and you say Chocolate and I say Toffee Crunch. We are each right. It is just an opinion. A preference. In the matter of Iraq, there are clear right and wrong issues. There is no multitude of opinions and multipe rights to the issue. There is a clear, moral right answer, and continued war with Iraq and Afghanistan is not the "right" answer. At least, if you believe in a God, particularly, the God of the Bible, then, to side with war, covetness, bearing false witness, and murder is not something that most of us can repent and atone for our sin before we die. It is to great a sin to be forgiven, because we have not repented, atoned for the sin, and changed our position to a moral one before we meet God.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:11 AM

Reasoning, I agree with your comments... however, did you read the "Protect the children" comment. I supported a ban such as IL, until I "listened" to what some non-smokers have suggested the next step would be. Where do you draw the line?

First it was warnings on packages, then then government buildings, then places of employment, then public buildings, then private property serving the public... now private homes, cars, parks, fairs, outside...

Sorry, I am not a smoker with a chip on my shoulder. However, I am not blind. Once smoking is banished, there will be another "cause" take its place. What freedom are you willing to give up next, because a special interest group thinks it is for your own good?

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:15 AM

I was speaking of "Christian" in general terms, with no particular person in mind.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:16 AM


Don't bother arguing with MJB. The man has been nothing but a lack of positive thoughts and aspirations for years. An Armchair General that commands his world through long, drawnout, posts fueled by the teachings of Alex Jones.


"No need to be unpleasant." Just taking lessons from your multiple personalitied self.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:23 AM


I do see that societal norms exist and are going to.

Like you I also see there is a fine line of where to balance.

I just worry because many societies have had major downfall after handing over lots of their freedoms.

I don't want to be part of that.


I'd like a good snowstorm too.

One that means I get to have a snow day!

I'm feeling pretty good. He's moving a lot.

We've still been passing the flu back and forth at my house..

hoping I don't get it a second time.

My back pain improved a bit from physical therapy...so I'm going to keep trying to get the pressure of my SI nerve.


I don't think the ban was written with the same sort of reasoning. The ban is on private property (privately owned businesses)..not just state ran public property. That is where the issue lies---if the state can tell a private business how it must proceed..

what is to stop them from telling you how you must proceed in your own home on your own land?

Not a dang thing.


Please please please don't beat the holy books at me. If you are likening to ice cream choices---holy books are the same way. It's a matter of what you as an individual, believe. Then, it's up to your interpretation---or the interpretation of whatever holy man feeds it to you.

That is the same regardless of what you follow...

even down to those who proclaim to follow nothing.

Right and wrong is defined by the norms that have been set in your life----not everyone is living by the same norm. Thus the difference in opinions.

I guess my point is that threatening everyone with fire and brimstone doesn't change opinions.

My apologies for this being a novel.

I hate posting long stuff.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:24 AM

***JOKE ALERT*** There have been concerns this forum may have a new form of virus. Clearly visable symptoms are repeated "cut and paste" seemingly endless post about the same topic.

Anti-virus experts have suggested to irradicate the virus, all posters must ignore the virus symptoms. ***END JOKE ALERT***

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:34 AM

Frankly,I would enjoy shuving Iraq right up Fletcher's rear end!I have this funny visual of him sitting there with three or four computers searching conspiracy sites for more cut n paste remarks.Tell ya what Mike!,

pick out one of those Countries that are better then ours and hop on a airline and get your butt out of here you disrespectful

jerk!You need a good whipping and this older Vet would just love to set you straight!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:35 AM


Thank you for the defense, but all is well. My original thoughts were thinking outloud and because I put them to keyboard I did open myself to rebuttle. However I tried, I could not convince that what I typed is not what I was trying to say. My fault for typing in the first place. I can't claim everyone has their opinion and then be upset because someone disagrees with mine. But, again, thank you for your support and backing!!! HUGS

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:48 AM

GREYWOLF, While you and I don't always agree, I do enjoy your posts. Please, don't allow the "unnamed" poster(s) to "push your buttons" to the point they elicit the responses they are soliciting. Some appear to get their jollies in odd ways.

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:57 AM


Hope the Mrs is doing well. And you also.

Did anyone else notice that yesterday it was reported that the Cape Airport was holding off on picking a new carrier and today they announce who they are choicing?? Kind of a short holding off period don't you think?

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:58 AM

Yeah..and it appears they picked one that is supposedly having problems aquiring planes and whatnot from the old one that failed. It also said the Big Sky pilots don't want to work for Great Lakes because they get a paycut.

Hopefully this isn't just another belly up venture.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:00 AM

Well, hmmm. I've tried to restrain and hold myself in reserve for several days observing the rantings of this character,Fletcher, who should be tied to a stretcher (Oops, sorry. The wannabe poet beast in me attempted a breakout!), Mike Ballou, or whatever his face is. But I tend to fall in with fellow veterans when Fletch opts to take 'em on. Besides, vets are my favorite kind of people-type persons...even though I don't fancy myself as a "people person" anymore and, being retired, no longer have to invoke that silly phrase in job interviews. Anyway, back to Fletcher.

If Fletch wants to start diagnosing vets, then turn-about should be fair play. Right, boys & girls? So break out and hang your virtual shingles for a bit, and let's have a diagnosis contest on this guy; we can let the professionals weigh in later. And I'll lead off and venture my layman's shot first.

According to my old copy of the DSM III (too cheap to upgrade to a IV), Fletch may be afflicted with severe paranoia with delusions of grandeur, possibly complicated by substance-induced bipolar disorder. I presume Fletch may be complicating his condition per the following: A. Habitually going off his meds (perhaps Lithium); B. Tampering with authorized prescriptions; C. Mixing prescribed meds with his booze; D. (won't go there); E. All the above. All these conditions may result in serious threats to himself and others. Wait. I may be mistaken here...Fletch probably has no friends or family who would choose to be anywhere near him, so that may be a moot point.

Since Farmington has already been suggested for treatment, I tend to agree. Our Webmaster is a very nice chap, maybe too nice. But perhaps it's time for him to arrange for the proper authorities to transport Fletch (and some others of his ilk?) to Farmington for a session in the pink room...if they even do that anymore; compliments of the taxpayers, of course. Failing that method, a four-point tie-down and injection of Thorazine may do the trick. There. That's my amateur shot at the diagnosis game. How'd I do? Next!!!

-- Posted by Herr_Hauptmann_DES on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:26 AM

Protect the children: Okay. Let's do that, but take it a step further: No smokers should be allowed to get pregnant.

Next, let's protect the children by passing laws that ban people who cannot afford to pay the doctor/hospital bills for the birth from having children--poverty hurts children physically and mentally. Parents who cannot afford to feed/clothe/house children should be banned from having them. How about a law making it illegal to have children if you do not have at least a high school diploma?

Make it illegal to feed children anything unhealthy--no McDonald's burgers, no candy/cola/cupcakes/cookies/boxed mac & cheese. No driving until the children have graduated. Hmm, perhaps riding bicycles/skateboards are dangerous to their health--ban them! No sports allowed because of risk of injury. Gas masks should be required for children when out of their homes, because of air-borne pollutants.

Well, you see where this is going? Let's just allow our government to take over all our personal and business lives. Starting with "it's for the children" could open up a whole new can of worms.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:39 AM

ty Guru!!

*cheers and waves whip*

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:42 AM

To quote Mrs Lovejoy,

"Oh for the love of God, won't you think of the children!!!"

Always the last cry of the desperate.

Just my humble opinion mind you.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:43 AM


Thanks for the latest on that White House Iranian boat propaganda venture. That is some very interesting information. Do you recall the operation in Somalia that is referred to as Black Hawk Down in the movie of the same name? If I remember, correctly, the commander had requested armor, including M1A Abrams tanks. This was a UN venture and the armor was under control of another nation, if I am remembering this right. Anyway, after the Black Hawk incident, it comes out that the Commander had requested armor and APC's from the Pentagon and that they ahd been turned down. Clinton and Aspin were feeling the heat. Then, the commander gets a personal visit from either Les Aspin or Cohen. I can't remember. Immediately, the commander in Somalia issued a statement that even if they had had the armor, it wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome. I guess that all it takes to see things more "clearly" is to get a visit from the President, or, the Secretary of Defense.

History does repeat itself. Thanks for your story.

It is clear that Bush, the Israel lobby, the war profiteers, and the rest of the neocon empire builders so badly wanted an excuse to attack Iran that they faked the voicing of the on the Navy tape. This "outrage" was going to conincide with Bush's Middle Eastern trip, to help him drum up support among the Gulf States for his planned unprovoked attack on Iran. The Nancy Pelosi Democrats are all set to give him a green light, all he has to do is cook up a flimsy faked provocation and we will be off and running to war with Iran.

Bush has problems in the Gulf. More than one Gulf State warned him, recently, not to attack Iran. It was a warning, not a suggestion. All the handholding, kissing and sword dancing by the president, isn't going to change their minds. If he manages a Gulf of Tonkin faked incident, the Gulf States will know it. They are not that stupid.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:50 AM

Oh, let's set the record straight for the learning impaired. I have never, ever said that this country sucks. I have said that there are some mighty sucky people in it, and they seem to be running things.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:56 AM


I just noticed you finally dipped your toe in the polluted blog pond today (or should I say bog!). I guess you signed out last night before I could get back to ya. But if you check out my final post last night, about 10:16 PM (hate this civie time system!), you might find we have a little something in commom.

-- Posted by Herr_Hauptmann_DES on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 12:09 PM


No holy books, but in this universe there are certain truths that a society abides by.

As a society,

We all tend to agree that it is wrong for someone to steal your stuff.

We generally agree that it is wrong to become so lustful for your stuff, that you develop elaborate schemes in order to get that stuff.

We all tend to agree that it is wrong for people to tell very serious, complicated lies about you.

We all tend to agree it is wrong to murder.

Now, those truths are pretty much universal among people and their societies. They often make rules and punishments for those who break those rules. Those truths are often found in the religious teachings of various groups worldwide.

Now, if you think it is okay to steal, I understand your thinking on Iraq.

If you think it is okay to covet and lust after the possessions of another, then, I can understand your thinking on Iraq.

If you think that telling lies is no big deal, then, I can understand your position on Iraq.

If you further believe that murder, is okay, as long as you get what you want, then, I can understand your thinking on Iraq.

There is no justification for the war. The Iraqi people do not want America to be there. The majority of Americans do not want Americans to be there. As far back as 2005, polls in Iraq have shown that. Here is a, then, secret poll conducted by the British military in Iraq. It found that MILLIONS of Iraqi's thought that it was justified to kill British soldiers in suicide attacks. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...

"The secret poll appears to contradict claims made by Gen Sir Mike Jackson, the Chief of the General Staff, who only days ago congratulated British soldiers for "supporting the Iraqi people in building a new and better Iraq".

Let me not labor this point, but lets fast forward to September of last year. 70% of Iraqis said that they thought that the Surge had made their situation worse. 47% of Iraqi's want Americans to leave IMMEDIATELY..understand? IMMEDIATELY.

"According to this poll commissioned by the BBC, ABC and NHK to assess the effects of the US military's surge strategy, 70 percent of Iraqis believe the strategy has made Iraq's security situation worse. The poll finds 47 percent of Iraqis want US-led forces to leave Iraq immediately and 34 percent want the troops to leave when the security situation improves. The results of the survey indicate the surge has hampered conditions for political dialogue, reconstruction and economic development and has not improved security. The findings come as US Commander General David Petraeus prepares to deliver his own assessment of the 'surge' strategy to Congress"


When asked,

"Do you think your children will have a better life than you, worse, or about the same?" 67% of Iraqis responded that their childrens lives would be worse, or, about the same. That's not success, that is sad.

When asked if they had confidence in the US and UK occupation forces, 85% of Iraqi's polled said very little or NONE at all. This was in September.

May, I? This one should shut up those who have faked their Iraqi war experience here with crap about what a good job that "we" are doing. It is question 18.

"Q18 Since the war, how do you feel about the way in which the United States and other Coalition forces have carried out their responsibilities in Iraq? Have they done a very good job, quite a good job, quite a bad job, or a very bad job?" 80% of Iraqis said that the US was doing "QUITE A BAD JOB," or, a "VERY BAD JOB."

"Q19 Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq?" 79% of Iraqi's said that they somewhat oppose or strongly oppose the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq. Picture getting any clearer?

We are getting closer...

"Q20 As you may know, the United States has increased the number of its forces in Baghdad and surrounding provinces in the past six months. For each item I name, please tell me if you think this increase of U.S. forces has made it better, made it worse, or had no effect.

Security in the areas where these forces have been sent" For all the billions of our tax dollars and the debt racked up to Communist China for the Israeli lobby SURGE plan, 81% said that the SURGE HAD HAD NO EFFECT or MADE THINGS WORSE in the areas where the Surge was operating.

"Q27 Who do you blame the most for the violence that is occurring in the country?"

When asked who was responsible for the violence in Iraq, keep in mind that this was a survey taken just FOUR months ago. The United States was the #1 answer as to the cause of violence in Iraq. Among Sunnis, the United Staes was the the one who was blamed for the violence in Iraq, followed by COMMON CRIMINALS, a close second. Shia said that foreign jihadists were the main cause, but, picked the United States at the #2 villian. Keep in mind that there were no foreign jihadists in Iraq before the Bush regime invaded. 14% of Sunnis blame Bush, himself, for the violence in Iraq.

Oh, that old canard about CIVIL WAR breaking out if the US leaves too early? Well, 44% of Sunni's and 55% of Shia's said that it would be LESS LIKELY THAT THERE WOULD BE A CIVIL WAR, if the US pulled out before civil order was restored.

The people have spoken. Too bad, that there are those who don't want to,no, REFUSE, to listen.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 12:43 PM

I think that America has always had a significant number of good and noble people. Whether a nation can be noble, is another matter. A nation is thing like the military. It is made up of people, but among those people, or, the leaders of this natioin, there have always been shares of good and bad.

I think that the revolutionary period might have seen a significant portiion of good and noble people. The signers gave their all. While some did not fight, for various reasons, many lost their possession, their worldly goods in the creation of this nation. I wonder if we have great numbers of leaders in this country who would make such a sacrifice today?

Had the Confederacy been allowed to exist, I believe that we would have seen the end of slavery in a very few years as developments and technology increased in the south. We would have had a much smoother transistion to freedome for the slaves, and I believe that the southeners would have a much different outlook upon the freed slave compared to what they did at the conclusion of the War of Northern Aggression. Southeners would have come to realize that negroes were people, and with the decreased reliance upon them as technology developed, I really do believe the relationship between the white southerner and the freed slave would have been more amicable. That would have been an opportunity for noble growth in humanity, but it was never allowed to develop due to the war.

That is just my opinion.

The depression years showed both the ugly side and the good side of America. WWII was the hour that America shined in the eyes of the rest of the world. JFK was okay. There was hope for America back then. Lots of optimism. After the aasassination of JFK, things pretty was about a 50/50 from there until now, in my opinion. Landing on the moon was nice, along with the whole exploration of space thing, but with the civil unrest, the burning of Libery in Miami, the Watts riots, the 68 Democrat convention, noble and good was kind of an individual thing. Groups of noble people, groups of not so noble people vying for control of this nation. Barry Goldwater was on it right away. When I read about it in the 60's, I just couldn't wrap my mind around what they were saying. Plots, conspriacies, this coming from well known figures in America. When I first heard about a Shadow government, I didn't believe it. Couldn't be true, because "I voted, and we elected our leaders by ballot." I was almost a card carrying member of the "It couldn't happen here crowd."

America is a thing. America is only as good as the people in her, running her, and willing to fight for her.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 1:00 PM

Now don't get me wrong..I am all for free speach and anyone should be allowed to post their (or cut and paste other's opinions)...I don't mind passing over and not reading the 1000 word essays. But when people comment on what they post, then I have to go and skim over those long posts to keep up lol. Just scroll on past them, and problem is solved.

-- Posted by allen6177 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 1:05 PM

Thak you for reminding me.

I understand that Michael J. Ballou used to go to the Global Cafe on Broadway, next to Kidds, on Fridays and started the get lunch get togethers by first inviting jumpingjehova and Tarantulas to join him.

I have gone to the Global Cafe on a couple Fridays, but never at the right time to catch him there.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 1:05 PM


I don't agree with your facts that you are citing as lies, coveting, etc, etc...

You are citing polls that may or may not be fact. Poll statistics can and often are skewed. If you are outraged with the lying...then dig deeper than a two bit poll.

The information coming from these polls completely conflicts with the information being provided by those who HAVE been there in person--military, non-military contractors, iraqi citizens who have come here.

What is compelling you to believe one poll that is backed by major media outlets? and why does your belief in that poll have to be about anybody's religion?

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 1:13 PM

Whenever a lobby wants to have the government infringe on personal rights, they use the "protect the children" as a way to get their agenda across. It was the insurance lobby that got states to pass laws to make it a crime to not buckle in a child. Few argued, it made good sense. A few years later, after we got used to that, you have to buckle up everyone in the car or face a ticket. Same with smoking, big insurance lobbies state legislators, It gets voted on and becomes law. As far as taking your infant/child to a bar (not restaurant / bar) because now they won't be subject to the second hand smoke, I question your parenting skills. Kids shouldn't be in bars so why is it illegal now to smoke in one?

-- Posted by Lucca Brazzi on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 1:35 PM

Got to get some things done. In the "you think that you have problems category, this is the "tree man who grew roots." Nasty disease, sad in a way, wife left him, lost his job, raising his kids alone. You won't believe this man. I have never seen anything like it.


-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 1:39 PM


Valid point, indeed. However, the one poll was done secretly by the British military. It was done in 2005. The poll results are about the same, today, and in some cases, worse.

"The survey was conducted by an Iraqi university research team that, for security reasons, was not told the data it compiled would be used by coalition forces. It reveals:

* Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;

* 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops;

* less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;

* 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;

* 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;

* 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces."

The other poll was conducted by the Global Policy Forum. Doesn't look like they operate out of the trunk of a 73 Chevy. They have a very extensive survey. I didn't show it all, because it have over 30 questions. Take a look at it. It does compare favorably with other surveys that have been done in Iraq.


Like I said earlier, you don't have to be a prostitute, or, frequent prostitutes often to know a prostitute when you see one. Same goes for Iraq. Others have put it a little more sophisticated, you might refer to their opinion if you find mine a little to earthy.

Give me your justification for killing Iraqi's when they did not harm us? Give me your opinion why we went to Iraq in the first place. Please, none of that garbage about wanting to free them from Saddam. We have seen the work of the propagandists in the White House with the so called Iranina boat incident. Unfortuantely, there are so many Americans who will still fall for a simple little scam.

"I am comming at you, yooou will soooooon explodah."

Americans are so naive, so unsophisticated, that the next time that Osama releases another tape just before the election, asking Americans to vote for a Democrat, they will fall for it once again, and vote Republican. God, we are stupid, we believe anying that BIG DADDY tells us.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 1:59 PM

Michael was my uncles name, and my confirmation name. Since I didn't have a middle name, years ago I lived in a towns with more than one J. or Jerry Fletcher, I used Jerry M. Fletcher, or, Jerry Michael Fletcher in the phone books.

I have been on here long enough to know to that you were referring to me, and my posts, so, I respond accordingly.

Michael was and still is my favorite Saint.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 2:07 PM


-- Posted by Lord_love_a_duck! on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 2:12 PM

I don't think that the majority of insurgents involved in the fighting are actual Iraqi citizens. If you look at a lot of research you will see that Al Quaida supporters from lots of countries are and were flooding the borders of Iraq.

I do wonder about something--it is slightly related but not at the same time. Why do people stay in countries such as Palestine/Israel/etc if they aren't in support of what is being "attacked" as some would say? Why would you live there and walk to work and whatnot while the people around you fight in the streets?

That is what I wonder about the actual innocent individuals in Iraq. They aren't the ones fighting for Al Quaida...they are the ones who just happen to exist there. And I wonder why the heck they don't just pack up and relocate.

I'd leave nothing and definite danger for possibility and the unknown any day.

I still don't find polls to be all that credible. When I can today, I'll click your link and take a look though. I'm interested to see their projected margin of error.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 2:15 PM


Sorry, but where are they to go? Other countries in the area are close or just as dangerous. Europe?? Not very welcome there. The US?? Some would say definately not welcome here, or at the very least would want them monitored 24/7.

Saying if you don't like it move, is east to say, but hard to accomplish. Though, saying if you don't like what you read don't read it is easy to do. lol

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 2:22 PM


Never set foot in Hong Kong. But I can agree with you that shore patrol is no fun. The worst incident the few times I drew shore patrol, I was nearly taken out by one of our own! Fun story though.

The guy was a huge, albeit pretty amiable Samoan, except when he got to drinking. In fact, back when we leveled the EM club on Midway and got kicked off the island, Sammy (as I think we called him) was our secret weapon, since we were heavily outnumbered by the regulars. But to initially keep us all out of trouble, we made a deal with Sammy that if we could lash him to a palm tree outside the place, we'd pacify him with a case of beer now & then. That arrangement worked out well, at least until we were starting to get overwhelmed by superior numbers in the brawl...which, by the way, we didn't start! Well, one of the guys got the bright idea to unleash Sammy a let him "earn his brew". Needless to say, he was not only the great equalizer in said conflict, but also quite useful in bringing that dump almost completely to the ground!

My problem with Sammy was in Honolulu, and he was on liberty while I was stuck on shore patrol. Well, we got the feared call that he'd had too much happy juice, so went to collect him. He was OK at first; however, on the way back to base, he freaked out & got our driver in a stranglehold while fending off the rest of us. I think the only thing that saved us were those huge Honolulu cops who observed our vehicle wildly weaving all over the highway. They finally got us stopped, and as they approached the vehicle patting their big clubs with anticipation of blood, Sammy got the hint that it was time to settle down. Whew, what hairy but fun memories!

On the sonar thing. After months of tech & ASW ops training, I was assigned to an old 255 ft WWII-era DE with no danged sonar!! Typical military thinking, so I was assigned mostly to CIC ops. No armament to brag about, other than 50 cal. MGs, & still sporting a 5" gun mount on the bow. Oh, but we had something else (rather useless) which you may recall: Hedge Hogs! Not too cool for chasing down nuc-powered fast attack subs!! Besides, the old barge was always trying to sink on us out a sea.

You're right about advancement in sonar, since it was considered a critical rate. I even made E-6 in about 3 years. But by the time I got on a ship with sonar (378-footer built for it), I had to rely on the young bloods who were freshly out of the advanced tech schools. Oh, well. Still neat memories though. And I can't complain about the doors opened later with the G.I. Bill. Yes/No?!

-- Posted by Herr_Hauptmann_DES on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 2:34 PM

I see your point, Pups...

I just figure if (particularly palestine/israel) someone was going to be blowing stuff up around me all the time or running around shooting people and whatnot..

I'd remove myself even if it were difficult.

Or at least not live in the area of my country where it was predominant. (i.e. I choose not to live in an urban neighborhood with gang violence)

And while I don't think we should absorb and reward the illegal immigrants who have NOT followed the process--I think we should fix our immigration process to make it usable. I knew one gentleman who came here...worked..and got his citizenship..and had to spend 20 years getting his wife and daughters the ability to immigrate due to the shortfalls of the system.

Ironically enough--he had more love for our country than a lot of the people born here in spite of all the hardship.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 2:46 PM


I see your point also. I was just being a bit of devil's advocate. You are correct, if the neighborhood is too dangerous then try to move. Not always an easy thing to do.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 3:21 PM


This nation was built on the sweat of American industrialization. In my opinion, if you don't support American Manufacturing, you're a Communist!

-- Posted by Mr_Fruity_Flapjacks on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 3:30 PM


Just make sure the American vehicle you buy was manufactured in the U.S. and not Mexico or Canada.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 3:46 PM

You also have to watch--some of those American vehicles have their stock majority held by foreign companies.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 3:49 PM


Better to buy an American car built in a foriegn country providing a job for a foriegner, or a foriegn car built in America providing a job for an American?

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 3:57 PM


How about being a contientious consumer. Buying what is best for you as an individual. If we all bought goods just made in the USA what incentive would there be for the manufacturer of the goods to become more inovative.

Do you think Detroit would have ever changed if not for the competition from Japan? That is truely what makes the USA great. Detroit wants my money...make a better car at a better price.

That is the essence of a free market economy. Otherwise you have something closer to fascism.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 4:04 PM

I once had a Ford Probe with a Mazda engine assembled in Canada.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 4:12 PM



-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 4:22 PM

But that only holds true if your Vietnamese shirt lasts the same 12 months as your American made shirt.

If it only lasts 3 months and you have to buy four shirts..

you are not economically better off.


Sorry..I couldn't resist.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 4:22 PM

Re: Planet doctors

Just an odd thought - if global cooling were the issue, would the corresponding proposed 'action' be to increase the emission of greenhouse gases and the other noxious nasties?


-- Posted by fxpwt on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 4:24 PM


I have wondered that myself. If we are experiencing some global warming, which I believe we are (regardless of the culprit), I rather enjoy the milder winters.

I could actually stand for it to be a few degrees warmer.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 4:30 PM


No, the planet doctors will never be happy. Remember back in the 70's we had the cooling scare, so we raised emmissions to warm up and now the planet doctors are b*tching about being too warm.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 4:30 PM

In theory, if you consider only the money aspect, it would be to your good to buy a $5 dollar shirt, all things, especially quality being equal.

However, I have never come across a $5.00 shirt made in Vietnam, or, anywhere. The only place that you will be able to buy that shirt for $5.00, is if you are at the Dan Nang 5 & Dime. and Nuyen is running a special that day. These corporations are going off shore to get the labor cost down around 30 cents an hour. They bring that product back here and sell it for $20 or $25. No $5.00 shirts, at least I haven't come across them.

Kohls did have some nice looking pants on sale not long ago. They were regularly $50, they were on SALE for $25. They were made in Vietnam. The hem of the pant leg wasn;t sewn in, it was merely pressed. It soon dropped out. My point being, that the pants, being made at 30 cents an hour, should have been about $5 or $7. But, the corporation knows that we are used to paying $25, $35 or more for a pair of pants, so, they price it thusly. They feel why should they price their pants on a scale according to their labor cost and pass the savings to us, when they can charge just about what they want and we will pay it.

Every job we do, from medicine to printing T-Shirts, or, working a call center, it all can be done cheaper off shore. The problem with that is, that our economy is driven by American workers having good jobs. No good job, then we get into trouble with our mortgage. I couldn't afford my Altima, if I had a $7-$9 and hour job. If I didn't come in to buy that Mazda from you, then you don't need the extra salesman and detail person in the back. The detail person doesn't have a job, he doesn't take his girlfriend to the movies, so I have to lay off one of the girls in tickets and do the job myself to save money. The ticket girl doesn't have a job, so se doesn't go crusing around with her girlfriends, because she can't afford the gas. I lay off one of my convenience store employees and close at 9pm, instead of staying open till midnight. He doesn't go to Culbertsons for hamburgers, so, I lay off one of he workers because the traffic in my store has slowed.

Since I didn't come in to buy that 2007 Altima factory car, the dealership not only layed off a couple employees, now, the dealership isn't going to expand this spring which would have created some constrution jobs.

We all depend upon each other. Sure, whatever we do can be done cheaper in India, Vietnam, or, China. But, the consequence is far reaching as we are seeing now in the economy. If we strive to reach to reach the bottom in the prusuit of a cheap wage, we will surely get there, but our nation and it's people will suffer.

Go to Wal-Mart, there are no cheap electronics, no cheap toasters or electirc irons. No cheap crockpots, no cheap anything. The plan developed by the globalists, globalism, was mean't to greatly enrich the common American. It was a means to stretch profits to the extreme, and get their stock prices up. In order to not looks so bad, they came up with half-truths and relied on a basically ignorant American public to believe things like "it's high taxes on business, it is environmental costs, it is the American worker wanting too much money for the job that drove us off shore." Okay, if that is the reason, now that you are making shirts in Vietnam for 30 cents an hour, where the hell is my $5.00 shirt?

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:03 PM

Not all greenhouse gases are noxious nasties. In fact, the most powerful greenhouse gas is water vapor. :-)

The key is developing technology that can lead to a reversible feedback system: when it gets too warm, reduce greenhouse compounds and when it gets too cold, put some back in. No this is not a joke.

Some really cool research is being done along these lines. Pick up a copy of Nature sometime, and have fun reading it for yourself. You don't have to always get science news from the TV or filtered to you through politicians. It's all available at Kent Library.

-- Posted by samtechs on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:03 PM

librule Car Manufacturers

Just a quick two cents. In my opinion, it would be better to buy a foreign name plate car, made in America, than to buy a Aneerican made car, made in Mexico, or, Canada.

The foreign corporation has taken a big risk by investing in America. He is putting Amerioan workers to work, maybe not at Detroit wages, but at a fair and living wage. Americans at work, benefit America the nation, and the people by circulating their money among us and buying our services, whether it be the convenience store, the restaurant, or, buying more tickets at the theatre. That simple exchange of money creates other jobs for Americans.

I have no problem with an American company going into another region of the world and competing for busniess there. I do have a problem when they close the factory in Cape and move it and the jobs to Mexico, Vietnam, or, communist China, pay them slave wages, and bring those products back here to sell at top dollar pricing.

A foreign name plate, made by Americans, that is my vote. Thank you for putting the question out there. It was a good one.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:16 PM

ARROW Shirts made in Vietnam go for well over $20 at Kohls.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:19 PM

Proof of our local Republican Party's careless spending habits: Backing Mary Kasten. Our city streets are littered with her signs. To think...the city crucified a local businessman for trying to make a living. This "signage" is overkill. She has about 50 signs on the roads heading to Cape Central High School.

Honestly, she didn't accomplish much in her previous terms, what is she going to accomplish this time? She might be a sweet old lady, but I'm not going to throw away good money (or good votes) after bad.

-- Posted by Mr_Breakfast_Flakes on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:23 PM

Speaking of these foreign cars, maybe we should reinstate Tariffs! That would stimulate some things ;o)

-- Posted by Mr_Breakfast_Flakes on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:25 PM

Maybe we could start buying cheaper health insurance in Japan and Mexico? Or even Taiwan? Yes!! That's it, I've figured a way to put some more local businessmen out of work!

I'm going to starting getting all my printing done over seas too!

-- Posted by Mr_Breakfast_Flakes on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:28 PM

Fletcher! Exactly the big "Romney" corporate executive types are paying 7 cents per hour for slave labor, then turning around and selling shirts at "50% off" for $25.00. Who are they trying to kid??

-- Posted by Mr_Breakfast_Flakes on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:33 PM

Hillco, Wealth? Generic Wealth perhaps. Not true wealth. Why do you think all we are having all these foreclosures on these $250,000 plus homes? The wealth you talk of is superficial and holds no longivity.

Real money...old money, has a tangible liquidation. New wealth is built on credit, and this recessions gonna kill those people.

-- Posted by Mr_Breakfast_Flakes on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:41 PM

Hilleco, Uh oh! More deficit spending coming our way! This time in the form of "immediate economic relief". Just heard, Bush is considering taxpayer rebates, reduced corporate tax rate by 10% and (dang, forgot the third thing).

Didn't the last "economic stimulus" rebate plan cost $33 Billion?

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 5:48 PM


You certainly are right about Americans not saving. Do you think that there are those who don't have residual income to save or invest, and that there are other Americans who are just living pay check to pay check and have no opportuinty to save. Especially now that gas is so high, and some other factors.

What is your take on the lack of a savings culture in America?

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 6:05 PM

Hilleco, Good points about the credit situation. If you noticed when the Congress revised Credit a couple years ago, they did not prohibit usury charges and excessive fees. Neither did they look into how these credit card companies work up a deal with colleges like SEMO, and students graduate with several credit cards in their wallet,and already several thousand dollars in debt.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 6:12 PM


I cannot recall what the total cost was of the previous economic plan was, but the result was either a $7.00 or $14.00 tax cut for those making about $30,000 a year. Big money.

In the past, when America made things here, and a citizen received a tax cut, or, refund, they would invest in a big ticket item. Maybe a new dishwasher, refrigerator, or, stove. When they bought that item, the store would call the factory in Amma, Ia, or, Herirn, Illinois and order a replacement item for his stockroom. That order resulted in over time pay for the employees, or, in some cases, caused an extra line being started up and new hire employees. The money spread around and helped the citizens that it came in contact with, and would bring us out of the eocnomic doldrums.

Now, however, when an American gets that tax cut, or, refund, she still may buy that new appliance or a new wardrobe, but, when she does, the store calls the factory in Shanghai, Jaurez, or, Da Nang. The money does not circulate. The purchase is made, the jobs are created off-shore, and the money leaves the country, as well.

That makes it very hard to pull the country out of a recession or an economic downturn, because the money doesn't do what it once did. It is sitting in a foreign bank, not circualting around town.

I am not so adamant, nor, as passionate about this topic as I am about wars for profit. So, this is merely my opinion that I offer. It is an opinion, not a moral absolute.

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 6:22 PM


Great story about saving. Wish that your saving ethic was the norm today.

It is the instant gratification that Americans have become accustomed to that seems to have put us in a jam. "Why save when I can put it on the card?and have it now."

-- Posted by Brill on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 6:28 PM

Suggest that at least part of the problem with low savings rates is a result of the 'instant gratification' mindset.

"I want it all, and I want it now", "why wait when you can have ...", "you deserve (insert widget of choice here) now", are some of the advertising messages heard.

Unless people have personally experienced or otherwise fear a financial 'rainy day', there's no reason in having an 'umbrella' savings account just laying around doing little-to-nothing.

Also suggest that credit cards add to the problem, by allowing people to dip into their future, anticipated income - spending money they don't have, yet.

As far as an individual's ability to save - to me, "can't" means only that one doesn't "want to" bad enough.

-- Posted by fxpwt on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 6:34 PM


poster virus. Classic. Purely classic. We better watch out, I hope it doesn't spread. It seems like a sickness that can only cured by cutting down on the left click button or just a hug.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 7:11 PM

For those who are confused,

I was referring to the $300 Bush tax rebate ($600 joint); which was designed to provide "immediate economic relief".

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 7:12 PM


I was just being a smart-hiney earlier...

I knew you meant the same quality shirt in your example.

About the saving---

I know it's hard. We are trying to save--and it seems like the car always breaks or whatnot. We don't have cars on credit--which is why all ours are old and sometimes need repair. We don't have credit cards to "fix it" if we run out of money. We just have to wait till the next payday.

Although I suppose we are saving---we are both contributing to our 401k at the full rate that gets the match by our employer.

We just want to save liquid cash as well.

It's a work in progress. =/

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:19 PM

Perhaps some one of us should send this comment section to our city, state and federal politicians--not that they would take it to heart (or probably never even read it). Seems they have missed out on the economics classes in high school and college:

Don't "buy" anything until you have saved enough money to pay for it--Don't "buy" anything if you will have to borrow money for it. Sounds simple enough, doesn't it?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 8:54 PM

Hey Jerry, Mike, or Nick,

It's 2200HRS isn't it time to bash the troops?

I really enjoyed HERR's little game he started that attempts to nail down a diagnosis for our resident peculiarity.

I'll take a shot at it, even though I lack the psychological background. How about Section Eight.

Ethanol fallout,

Dah, like you didn't see this coming. Econ 101. Supply and demand curve. A class that I wished was taught by someone who wasn't so old, that if she were a horse, they would've put her down YEARS ago.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:11 PM

Funny Alien Rabbit,

I'm still laughing.....classic.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:27 PM

I know, that's the funny part.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 10:42 PM

Hey folks, its not "Global Warming", or "Global Cooling", its "Climate Change"!!!

If your going to discuss these high-brow, too-complicated-for-the-ignorant-masses topics, please use the correct (politically correct, that is) Progressive terms.

Climate Change is a vague enough veil to cover anything that changes.

-- Posted by John in Jackson on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:09 PM

Fajar 154:

Outstanding diagnosis! Brevity and accuracy wrapped up in a two-word citation...beats my rather extended layman's dissertation!! There may be a slight caveat which may negate your diagnosis, however, regarding the subject in question. Would you not consider that our subject may fail to make it through an enlistment screening, let alone boot camp to even bag a Section Eight?!

I'd best contemplate hitting the rack so I can perform a "suicide sanity run" up to the St. Louis area tomorrow. It's kinda nice just to get out of the SEMO swamp once in awhile. Semper Der Hund!!

-- Posted by Herr_Hauptmann_DES on Thu, Jan 17, 2008, at 11:55 PM

hilleco, My original comment was not clear. And my later comment was not directed at you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

-- Posted by coke zero on Fri, Jan 18, 2008, at 2:03 AM

I said, "Wealth? Generic Wealth perhaps. Not true wealth. Why do you think all we are having all these foreclosures on these $250,000 plus homes? The wealth you talk of is superficial and holds no longivity."

Now how many people would I be talking about being wealth in Cape Girardeau? Get with the plan Fun Bunny! I'm talking nationally!

-- Posted by Mr_Breakfast_Flakes on Fri, Jan 18, 2008, at 8:10 AM

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