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Tuesday, June 2, 2015

Speak Out 1/2/08

Wednesday, January 2, 2008

Boost for McCain

IT'S BAD form to mention it so soon, but the assassination of Benazir Bhuttto and all that may stem from it will provide a well-deserved boost to the candidacy of John McCain. Serious foreign policy matters demand serious students of U.S. foreign policy. There is no doubt that McCain is miles ahead of any other candidate on matters of national and international security.

Involve the parents

PARENTS NEED to be aware of where their children go to school and get a feel for the university. What is sad to me is that there are parents who wouldn't go or have employers who don't understand why they want to go or need to go. Bottom line: Parents need to be more involved.

Legislators should act

I CHALLENGE any and all area state legislators to ignore public opinion, do the right thing and initiate legislation banning cell-phone usage while driving. I hope they will heed this plea and that (as happens most times) a major tragedy doesn't have to occur before the lawmakers are sufficiently motivated.

Inappropriate credit

PRESIDENT BUSH was right about what? Had we never invaded Iraq in the first place, would the country have become a breeding ground for terrorists who threatened the government? No. Thanking President Bush for lessening a threat that likely would not have occurred in the first place had we acted less hastily hardly seems appropriate.

De facto president

DAVID LIMBAUGH just doesn't seem to get it. By arguing that if Hillary Clinton is elected U.S. President, Bill Clinton will be de facto president, Limbaugh assumes this would be anathema to the American people. How wrong he is. Outside of an insignificant minority of voters, that scenario would be just fine with the American people. Back to the drawing board, Mr. Limbaugh.

Going to extremes

THE FORMER prime minister of Pakistan was assassinated in a suicide attack. I know we have differences here in the U.S. But I am so happy that U.S. citizens don't go to these extremes to get a point across.

Library math

LET'S DO the math. The Cape Girardeau Public Library is spending $9 million for an extreme makeover. In the immortal words of the late Sen. Ev Dirkson, "My, my, a million dollars here, a million dollars there -- before long it'll run into real money." And just down the street from the library's temporary location is the former K's Merchandise building with four times the space and 10 times the parking for probably half that. Good job, Cape voters.

Possible winner

USUALLY ANALYTICAL, calm and collected conservative columnist George Will has joined with other establishment Republicans and gone hysterical over the Mike Huckabee phenomenon. Will wrote that Huckabee represents a complete repudiation of Reaganism. That Will would join in apparent lock-step with other spillers of ink and denounce Huckabee in such an spurious fashion leaves me with an ever-growing feeling that Huckabee just might win the nomination and the presidency.

For birth control

I AGREE with the idea of birth control for single mothers. Especially if the fathers aren't responsible. I would love to have more children, but my motherly instincts have to take a back seat to the health and comfort of my child. Birth control is free in most cases. If you can't afford it on your own, chances are you can't afford a happy, healthy baby.

Danger on the road

CELL PHONES should be outlawed in cars when motorcycles are outlawed on the road. Motorcycle riders choose to ride unprotected, probably costing the taxpayers money in the long run. Wouldn't motorcycle riders be better off in a car or truck with doors and windows for protection? I won't gripe about anyone riding a motorcycle, if motorcycle riders don't gripe about my limited use of a cell phone when I am driving.

Glad they're gone

I WAS happy to read where some of the swim teams are leaving the Bubble. It had gotten to the point to where individuals didn't have anywhere to swim laps because the teams where constantly there practicing. I had one incident where I was swimming in my lane and a lifeguard told me to move because the swim team needed the lane -- even though I paid to get in and I pay taxes to support the Bubble. I am glad the swim teams are leaving.

Piling up debt

I AM paying $55 more on personal-property taxes than I did last year. For every $100 we spend for groceries, we have to pay around 5 dollars in taxes. Please tell me why my taxes have increased. Our president doesn't care that he has got us so far in debt we will never get out.

Handicapped parking

I HAVE seen much less illegal parking in handicapped spots since it was mentioned in Speak Out. That helps handicapped motorists, and I want to thank everyone.

A view of heaven

THIS IS pertaining to heaven and the belief that we'll all be looking down at our loved ones. This is not true. When we go to heaven, there is no sorrow. There's no looking down at this pitiful world and our poor relations left on Earth. My son shot himself before Christmas and is being cremated today. I know he is in heaven at peace and with love. But I also know that he is not looking down at his pitiful momma crying. Can you imagine what heaven is? It surely isn't anything like what's down here.

Pick up the trash

TO THE people complaining about litter and trash: If more people would bend at the waist and pick up trash on a regular basis, there wouldn't be such complaints. I pick up the trash around our city block at least every other day. It's good exercise. Give it a try.

Professional builders

I THINK Habitat for Humanity volunteers should be licensed to build houses. These people aren't skilled laborers. The houses don't get inspected until there done, and most of the time they don't pass inspection. Several things have to be redone. Leave the homebuilding to licensed professionals.

Need reflectors

THE TURN lanes at Kingshighway and Broadway need reflectors to guide you. Thank you.

Fact Check
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Piling up debt--

Start focusing on the correct political official. If you are paying more personal property taxes---that's a product of your state and local legislatures. If you are paying more taxes on your groceries that is a product of the same people.

Learn basic government so that you know where to focus and you don't just sound like every other jaded uneducated sometime voter.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:09 AM

Foriegn policy experience. McCain has good credentials on foreign policy the poster ignores both Joe Biden and Chris Dodd. I will concede that McCain has much better chance of winning his parties nomination.

-- Posted by Tom_Grey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:22 AM

Cell phones while driving. If this were out lawed the police officers would have to find something else to do while driving around all day.

-- Posted by Tom_Grey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:24 AM


Good one! But that is maditory, the academy teaches cadidiots how to solve all those cases through networking.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:35 AM

De facto president,

I guess Clinton back in the White House wouldn't be ALL negative. Think of the Lincoln bedroom. Once again, it can be rented by the hour.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:39 AM

Thanks Bethie for writing what I was thinking.

Cel phones,

Maybe we should ban cigarette smoking in cars as well. Keeps a hand off the wheel just like a cel phone then the butt is tossed out the window. Let's also mandate drivers exams for anyone 70 or older to be taken each year. How about losing your license for 30 days for speeding?

Handicapped parking,

The power of speakout to change peoples behaviors. I would suggest the caller has only taken notice because of the speakout comment. I doubt speakout had anything to do with altering behavior.

-- Posted by SWBG on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:44 AM

Boost for McCain:

My advice would be to read "A Foreign Policy of Freedom" before you think that John McCain's tired rhetoric constitutes anything more than pandering to defense contractors.

Legislators should act:

Of course the answer is more regulations to rule your private life. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Stop calling for MORE government intervention in meaningless nonsense!

Inappropriate credit:

The British government had the good sense this week to drop the wording "war on terror" when referring to the grab-asstic effort to curb terrorism. Do you think Bush and company be able to swallow their pride and do the same?

De facto president:

Don't worry... Hillary can't win.

Library math:

There are more issues at play here than just picking a location and renting it forever. I wonder how many $20,000 toilet seats went into moving the post office next to Shooters....

Possible winner:

Huckabee is an evangelical phony... He's using the same tactics that Bush did in 2000. He'd take our country back to the dark ages if he were elected. Voters need to see he real stance on social issues.. especially his views on women.. before giving him any consideration. He also supports giving million dollar grants and free tuition to illegals.

For birth control:

As long as the current entitlement system exists, people will continue to exploit it. Why work when you can sit at home and collect a paycheck forged on the brow of the middle class? Why get married when as a single mom you qualify for tons of government aid and freebies as your raise your ******* children?

Danger on the road:

See "Legislators should act", and stop trying to regulate peoples private lifes.

Piling up debt:

Your taxes keep increasing, because government waste never decreases. We spend a trillion dollars a year supporting military bases in countries like Germany and Korea, plus countless billions more on aid to wealthy nations like Israel... why?

A view of heaven:

Me "A view of heaven"

Professional builders:

Too bad more profession builders don't volunteer their time to these organizations, or otherwise you'd have nothing to complain about.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:48 AM

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:52 AM

A view of heaven:

Just a reminder, according to Christianity, all suicides goto hell no matter what. Your loved one that is now a pile of ashes is nothing more than a pile of ashes.

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:55 AM

Also--cell phone bans still won't stop all the people who:

1. apply makeup while driving or shave while driving (I used to see this alot in city rush hour in Dallas).

2. eat while driving

3. change radio stations

4. flick cigarettes or rummage for lighters

5. look at their passengers as talking...

My point--

there are WAY too many things to outlaw individual behaviors. Instead--if you are proceeding in a reckless manner they can cite you under the law that ALREADY exists.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:59 AM

*prepares to be banned/deleted because of my open-minded comments* Thank you Missourian!

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:00 AM


Agreed. Less laws, not more.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:02 AM


Not necessarily. Suicide is more and more being viewed as a consequence of mental illness. The Catholic Church recognizes this as I believe so do other Christian religions. Perhaps a little sensitivity training is in order or perhaps we can get congress to legislate sensitivity training for posters and require a license in order to post. ;)

-- Posted by SWBG on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:04 AM

Anyone who thinks that McCain is anything other than a tired sack of crap, needs to read about the Keating Five.


-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:06 AM

Tarantulas, "As long as the current entitlement system exists, people will continue to exploit it." Not trying to ruffle your web, but do you have any figures to back this statement up?

According to CMS's 2006 Medicaid beneficiaries statistics: 48% Children, 18% Blind/disabled, 11% Aged and 23% Adult. All of which have to meet stringent financial minimum requirements. An additional interesting fact, .59 cents of every dollar spent by CMS is paid to a nursing home.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:10 AM

"Just a reminder, according to Christianity, all suicides go to hell no matter what. Your loved one that is now a pile of ashes is nothing more than a pile of ashes."

PM98 - Be careful making broad statements about religion or religious groups. Not all Christians believe that all suicides go to hell. Last time I checked - that isn't the prerequisit for deciding where you spend eternity.

-- Posted by concernedincape on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:12 AM

fajar: then that money could be used towards our debt, after 8 yrs it would be paid off. Right?:):)

-- Posted by Aggiefan/Twiggy on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:20 AM


Judaism has traditionally, in light of its great emphasis on the sanctity of life, viewed suicide as one of the most serious of sins. Suicide has always been forbidden by Jewish law in all cases. It is not seen as an acceptable alternative even if one is being forced to commit certain cardinal sins for which one must give up one's life rather than sin.


In Catholicism, death by suicide is considered a grave and mortal sin. The chief Christian argument is that one's life is the property of God, and to destroy that life is to wrongly assert dominion over what is God's. In point 2281 of the Catechism it is stated:

Modern Protestantism

Conservative Christians (Evangelicals, Charismatics and Pentecostals) have often argued that because suicide involves self-murder, then anyone who commits it is sinning and is the same as if the person murdered another human being.


For Buddhists, since the first precept is to refrain from the destruction of life, including oneself, suicide is clearly considered a negative form of action.


In Hinduism, murdering one's own body is considered equally sinful as murdering another, with the exception of the currently defunct practice of sati. Scriptures generally state that to die by suicide (and any type of violent death) results in becoming a ghost.

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:20 AM

When you die, you're either burned to a pile of ashes or setup in a box to rot in the ground, the whole concept of going to heaven or hell is just an example of how religion brainwashes us to believe there's something better on the other side.

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:22 AM

concernedincape: not sure what version of christianity you have been brainwashed to believe, but a quick google search revealed the facts that I posted about most of religions. I'm done now.

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:24 AM

pm98, It would have been NICE, if you had expressed some empathy for the family involved. Do you think she had control over her family members choices? Where is your HEART?

A view of heaven, I am very sorry for your loss AND for the pain some other's comments may have caused. My God is an understanding God. I do disagree about loved ones concerning themselves with our mortal well-being. I have no doubt my Grandparents' spirits comfort me when I need them.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:27 AM

I guess PM98 I'm trying to see what your point is.

It doesn't relate to any of the topics...

and it seems really random.

Are you upset because someone you know has been "condemned" or are you "condemning" someone based on all your "evidence"?

I'm just not seeing where or what this applies to.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:29 AM

Nvm..I missed that one post in my reading this morning.

As well as your original post shows up as blank on my screen.

So, it seems more like "condemning" than before.

Feel free to sit inside your box and hurl stones at others.

Hopefully you never experience a family member or close friend who commits suicide and discover your box is made of glass.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:31 AM

He's commenting on the topic post regarding some parent trying to console themselves over their kids suicide. It's listed as "A view of heaven".

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:32 AM

I think PM98's post is mostly in reference to the "fluff" that people talk about the afterlife.

"In heaven, there are no traffic jams, and angels drive you around in cars"

..rolls eyes..

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:33 AM

I don't know what I think about the idea of "fluff."

The one certain thing about the afterlife...is that no one comes back to tell you what it's like. *shrugs*

I guess I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it.

I can't change it or impact it...

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:39 AM


Thanks for the concern you expressed in the 12/31/07 comments. I'm not the poor individual that had a recent benefit. "Lumpy" is a fairly common moniker.

I've just been very busy with the holidays and working myself into a higher tax bracket. It is unfortunate that taxes get more attention this time of year as our property taxes are collected. If our income taxes were collected the same way then folks would realize how bad we are getting shafted.

Now that I'm one of John Edwards "haves", I earned more last year than I ever have, yet I will make less than I did three years ago. I won't make that mistake in '08.

What kind of a sick tax code encourages people to work less?

On the positive side, my band has been fairly busy lately. The cold weather is good for us working musicians.

I'm here lurking and enjoying the posts by the newer posters, especially SuperBethie21 and Jerry Fletcher. And I'm still the president of the Hilleco fan club. Have a healthy and prosperous 2008!

-- Posted by Lumpy on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:40 AM

clg63701 & binker, Before I forget, in response to your 12/30/07 comments: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

fyi This children's taunt was first listed in 'Folk Phrases of Four Counties' (1894) by G.F. Northall and is first attested in the United States in 'Miss Lindsey' (1936) by S.G. Gibbons.


-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:40 AM


You took it in a totally different direction than I was going. I was addressing the generational abuse that goes on in our welfare system where people who are able to work don't simply because the current system is so lax that it allows practically anyone to collect benefits.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:43 AM

lumpy, I am so glad to hear you are okay! (Was really getting worried! I am a worry wart!) Good luck in the New Year! Sounds like things are off to a great start!

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:44 AM


Your "GOD" is DEAD and no one cares!

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:45 AM

LOL..Glad you are enjoying my posts, Lumpy.

Maybe we'll see you in the fray a little more often now that the holidays have passed. :)

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:45 AM


PM98 can answer to spew forth attack.

He/She cannot argue in a fact or even opinion based manner without trying to be personal.

I feel sorry for this poster.

I think they have some severe pain in their heart...perhaps that is why it sounds like they are so bitter.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:47 AM

No pain in this heart, it's pumping my blood just fine. If I were in pain, probably would be having a heart attack...oh well. I forgot to give credit to the all mighty Trent Reznor for that quote I posted.

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:49 AM

Tarantulas, Ah...I see what you are saying now, simular to my point that we all are beneficiaries of some entitlement program. (not going to debate that point again).

Interesting note, has anyone else come to the conclusion that no matter WHO is elected the healthcare issue will result in raised taxation or national deficit. Most Democrats are for raising taxes via rolling back to higher taxation of incomes of $250K and up to fund a UHC type program. Most Republicans are stating they are for insurance (&/or medical cost) tax deductions and tax credits.

Does this not really boil down to the same thing? More expense or less income for the government, what is the difference?

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:54 AM

I sort of see what PM98 is saying.. people do a lot to delude themselves, and the religious texts are pretty clear that suicide is an unforgivable sin. It's the one sin you can't ask forgiveness for. Plus, why use speakout as a spring board for your grief?

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:54 AM

I recognized Nine Inch Nails.

Had an ex who used to innundate me with the music and theories of Reznor.

I'm not sure why you'd want to post it in Speakout. Perhaps that person was the target of a neighborhood or congregation of judgemental people.

I mean--even if it does say that (which was also my understanding) it ALSO says that you are not to judge others in their deeds and actions and that responsibility is on God alone.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:01 AM


The solution is to tear down the walls between doctors and patients, and kill the HMOs and PPOs that Nixon allowed the creation of as a payoff to his campaign donaters.

Doing away with federal regulation, and encouraging competition, will also bring costs down.

Ever wonder why health care costs in St. Louis are LOWER than costs in the Cape area? I don't have to :)

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:02 AM

Tarantulas, One can/should expressed their opinion without nasty personal attack(s). NO WAY some individuals would have the courage to say such things to someone's face. That is a concern I have with online forums, some feel NO need to follow social norms for bad behavior.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:04 AM


It's silly to wax poetic about how someone is on a cloud in heaven, when their life ended in a manner that precludes their being in heaven.

Suicide is the mortal sin that you cannot be forgiven for. Thats the long and the short of it.

Christians like to harp on how homosexuality is a abomination, and yet the polygamy, incest, and church sanctioned slavery has seem to just be glossed over. Christians either need to get back to stoning people for wearing garments made with two different types of thread, or drop the whole ridiculous thing all together.

Personally, I don't believe any of it. I believe that when you die, you're just dead. Whatever other people want to believe is fine, BUT you can't use faith as some sort of giant cafeteria where you pick and choose what parts of the doctrine to believe.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:11 AM


I guess you're referencing the suicide post... I've been pretty nice on the health care stuff :)

"NO WAY some individuals would have the courage to say such things to someone's face."

I think we both know that I definitely "walk the walk".

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:14 AM

Tarantulas, "BUT you can't use faith as some sort of giant cafeteria where you pick and choose what parts of the doctrine to believe."

Why NOT? Think that was what our founding fathers' beliefs were. Where faith is concerned, to each their own. That is my belief.

Kind of like a spiritual Ryans.


-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:14 AM

Tarantulas, Yes...I wasn't addressing YOUR comments.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:15 AM

short white bald guy-

I'd be happy to see a ban on smoking in cars....I've been hit on more than one occasion while out riding my motorcycle by some nitwit who thinks the world is his/her ash tray and tosses the butt out their window with no consideration as to whom may be in the path of that cigarette.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:22 AM


If you do not believe then why comment? It appears you have believed at one point as your knowledges is more than cursory.

I attempted to find an article I read regarding suicide and mental illness from a forgiving perspective. Suicide generally being the result of a serious mental illness. There are approximately 2 suicides in the state of Missouri everyday. It is extremely difficult situation to help the families affected by this tragedy. If someone calling speakout helps them cope then so be it.

-- Posted by SWBG on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:22 AM

I can see that it's not necessary to wax poetic....

but religious texts are open to interpretation and have been altered and translated many times which have an effect on how they appear currently...

Isn't it picking and choosing to want to condemn someone...even though it also says that it is not your job to condemn someone?

Wouldn't that make both things a sin--the person who committed the act and the person who judged them for it?

(also all the "you" and etc...doesn't mean truly you...it's a more generic you)

That also assumes that all people follow the belief systems of the major religions discussed. The speakout commentor referred to their view of "heaven"--they did not refer to their type of religion.

We could all be imposing our religion upon them.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:25 AM


Here are a couple of verses that Christians need to memorize.

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth."

Revelation 3:15 - 3:16

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:26 AM


I personally don't take the Bible as "literal" as many do. Certainly, there are lessons that one could learn from the Bible, as there are lessons that can be learned from some proverbs, quotations, history, observations etc. For example, something as simple as gardening can teach you a valuable life lesson, patience.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:41 AM

short white bald guy:

Man's interpretation of god's word means nothing, because it's just that.. interpretation.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-20)

A above addresses mortal sin, sins which are premeditated, and deliberate in nature...

Plus the 5th commandment (You shall not kill / You shall not murder) isn't up for much interpretation.. killing yourself or another person is murder accord to god's law.

If you kill yourself, you have committed murder, and being dead, you are now unable to ask for forgiveness for the sin, so you're sort of screwed.

Personally, I don't believe in sin, I'm just quoting out of your guy's play book. If you don't choose to follow the rules, I'm sure that many a lukewarm christian is going to be pretty surprised if it all turns out to be true.


It's foolish to post something in speakout and not think that people are going to comment on it. I'm not trying to pick out what faith the poster was, but it's pretty obviously someone of judeo-christian belief. As such, what I just posted above to SWBG is very much on topic based on their original post.

I am not a christian, so I am not bound by the same "judge not" rules that christans choose to practice. If the original poster wants to write about their fantasy of their loved one sitting on a cloud, playing checkers with their great great grandfather, and singing kumbaya from now till the end of time, it's their right to do so.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:43 AM


Of course it shouldn't be taken literally. I mean god likely isn't going to literally spit people out of his mouth... but you never know... he is a natural showman, and has been pretty flashy in the past.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:46 AM

I wasn't posting as a critique of you, Spidey.

I was posting in general...and originally gravitated to the conversation in response to PM98.

I do think interpretation counts for something---

There is evidence that in tranlating to the King James version that certain passages were changed/edited to "better apply" the viewpoints of King James' politics.

This even goes back to the views of sex being altered by Saint Augustine.

So..if someone is changing the words of "god" then how does one even know where the truth lies?

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:58 AM


I agree, all the translations over the centuries from hewbrew to greek to latin have turned Mary from a "young girl" in a "virgin".

Sure makes the nativity story a lot different.

Also, don't tell your catholic friends, they'll discount the facts as "secular interpretation."

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:06 AM

It should have read:

..from a "young girl" INTO a "virgin".

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:10 AM

Pick up the trash:

Maybe if the city OF CAPE trash collectors wouldn't be such nazi's about how many bags of trash they will pickup, etc I to could go around the neighborhood and collect the trash that is littered. However, I struggle to be able to fit all of the baby diapers, junk mail, and general waste that my family produces in a week, into two 35 gallon trash bags. It's funny though, I trick these trash collectors by putting my extra bags out on the curb in front of the many empty houses on my street. No more trash collection pink slips for me!

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:11 AM

SOCK it to ME: Please, give me all the reasons WHY you are against Universal Health Care! (Thanks for your participation, won't be debating...just curious what the opposing stances are.)

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:11 AM

pm98, Don't bite my head off, I am trying to be helpful...did you know you could purchase a sticker for additional bags at City Hall. They are $1 each.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:13 AM

I'm already paying a monthly fee for trash pickup. Why should anyone who aleady pays the city, have to pay extra $$'s for them to pickup my stuff.

Sikeston trash service will pickup anything that you put out there on the curb, no matter how much stuff you have. I'm sure there's limits, but my family in sikeston has yet to hit those limits in the 15 years they have lived in the same house. I remember putting a toilet out on the curb, they threw it in the trash truck like it was no big deal, smashed it up, made a loud Boom. That was exciting!

-- Posted by pm98 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:22 AM


The government has no responsibility to take care of you from cradle to grave. If you feel that you are entitled to anything, you're slapping the face of the hard work and sacrifice that made this country great.

If you think that health care managed by the government is a good thing, talk to veterans about the care they receive.

If you are concerned about the poor and elderly receiving care, they already do.. for free.

UHC isn't going to solve any problems in terms of the cost of medical care. How many $20,000 toilet seats and juice "good ole' boy" contracts does the middle class need added to their already ridiculous tax burden?

Finally, what has the government ever done that has been worth a tin *****?

Socialism isn't the answer to our health care situation.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:22 AM

"Looking Down From Heaven" I cannot believe the insensitivity of some people. Let the woman believe what comforts her and save your philosophical discussions for the proper forum. No one loves a good debate more than I, but not when it causes pain to others.

-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:24 AM


Again, if the caller didn't want discussion on their comments, why bring it to this forum.

I have no sympathy for delusional people who use public discourse as a vehicle for soliciting sympathy.

To put this as gingerly as possible - Sorry for their loss, but according to their dogma, their fantasy isn't reality.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:30 AM

I'm still trying to figure out how we determined what her dogma was.

We have no idea of "looking down for heavens" religion or dogma. She only stated that she believed in heaven...

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:36 AM

Tarantulas, Sorry said I wasn't going to debate...but what about the 19.8% of the uninsured between the ages of 18-64?

I want to make sure I understand your stance, may I recap:

It should be an individuals responsibility to assume their healthcare cost/insurance.

You believe the government is inefficient in all it does, so why would healthcare be different.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:41 AM

My sister--who is considerably older than I am and remembers when times were simple and less expensive--made an interesting statement the other day and I'd like to know what you all think of it. She said she remembers when health insurance was to pay for the large bills at hospitals, not the everyday care one received at a doctor's office. By paying every time you visited a doctor you were able to 1) keep the cost of the physician's visit affordable and 2) keep the insurance costs down. People thought twice before jumping up and running to the emergency room or doctor's office for a sniffle or a scratch. That made sense to me. I'm interested in what others think.

-- Posted by Maxine_the_Magnificent on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:10 PM

I have to put my two cents worth in on the post from the mother who lost her son. Give this woman a break! As a mother, I know her heart must be broken and she deserves just a LITTLE tenderness instead of being attacked by PM98 and the Spider Man. As an aunt whose beautiful niece committed suicide many years ago at the tender age of 16, I implore you again to at least empathize with this mother.

Those of you who believe in nothing can carry on all you wish about how wrong we Christians are, but we know who and what we are and all your words will not beat us down. I don't think it is the CHRISTIANS who will one day be surprised at what they find when they die. I believe it will be YOU who are surprised, and I am going to enjoy so much giving you all hugs up in heaven and whispering in your ear, with love, "I told you so!"

By the way, I am mostly a lurker. I only have the nerve to get on here today because of the obviously good heart of Melange and Bethie and a few others. It's scarey in these here parts!

-- Posted by Maxine_the_Magnificent on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:19 PM

Mary's Madhouse,

Many employers have raised employees' deductibles to $ 1,500 per person. To me, that is Major Medical coverage, not healthcare insurance as we have enjoyed in the past.

The reason why most employers' have raised the deductible is to keep the insurance cost/expense is affordable so they CAN offer some coverage to their employees.

Interesting notes: 2003, 2004, 2005 respectfully: Insurance Premium Average increase 20.4, 15, 14.8%; CPI (Consumer Price Index) 1.9, 3.3, 3.4%; Labor Cost per unit (equals wage increase?) .5, 1.8, 1.6

Still looking for Medical Cost Index...man these numbers are not easy to find, been looking for facts, since 3 am.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:27 PM

Hilleco, Please, help me out here...I want to avoid a fallacy; does Labor Cost per unit equals wage increase? (Thank you kind Sir!)

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:38 PM

I suppose I understand the need to be sympathetic after having a family member commit suicide....

I also have had issues in my past that included being suicidal for a period during my teenage years and was even on fully monitored 24 hour watch for many months in an effort to keep me safe from myself.

Only I know what I thought and felt during those times and where my heart was in any religion---or no religion--at that time.

So--whether it is right or wrong--I don't feel it is my place to judge someone for their actions...

or to judge their family for trying to cope.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:51 PM

Medical coverage is very expensive and I hate the high deductables. We don't use our Insurance unless we just have to, but can't afford not to carry it either. Our deductable is $5000. each.

-- Posted by Aggiefan/Twiggy on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:05 PM

hilleco: Sure there will be extra economics costs to UHC but what about the potential for economic gains from it?

Entrepreneurship should rise as currently many people are trapped in situations that prevent them from producing nearly as much wealth as they possibly could because of healthcare costs. Starting your own business is a big risk to begin with, for those who have a family member with a pre-existing condition there is almost no way for them to rationally risk leaving a position that provides group benefits.

As I'm sure you know the vast majority of our economic growth comes from small businesses. They would be helped enormously by UHC; right now the playing field is tilted in favor of companies that have a large enough group of employees to get discounted group rates. Also large companies have much more cost certainty to their benefits plans. Currently if 1 or 2 employees at a small company(with say a dozen employees) have severe health issues the cost to the company upon renewal has the potential to drag an formerly profitable company into the red.

So if we have more people becoming producers of wealth then each of those person might find themselves paying a smaller percentage in the end(AKA government health care costs would be a smaller slice of a bigger pie).

-- Posted by Nil on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:09 PM

Aggiefan, Interesting point, and if you have coverage with $5000 deductible, then you would NOT be considered AMONG the uninsured 19.8% of those between 18 & 64.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:12 PM

TARANTULAS, I stand by my original post. Just because you can, does not mean you should. I won't pretend to understand the actions of a grieving parent as to the reason for her post and I see no harm that can come from her "delusions". No one's religious beliefs concern me and I do not feel compelled to point out the inconsistencies.

-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:13 PM

Hello everyone, Happy New Year.

I just have to make a comment about what Mary said. For those who have never lost someone to suicide,it is very hard to understand and accept. No one knows what that person was feeling at the moment they decided to quit fighting and to give up. I feel for anyone who has lost someone this way and hope that they can find a way to deal with it. I feel bad for those who have had to deal with this and hope that those who are so critcal of it do not ever have to eat your own words some day.

-- Posted by Twiggy60 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:13 PM

Entrepreneurship may not grow if UHC was adopted.

Tax rates significantly increase for employers and citizens in countries offering UHC. Thus the employer will have to pay even more taxes on every employee.

These countries typically have a higher unemployment rate and a higher inflation rate.

I don't support UHC. I believe freedom of choice is always the best option. I don't want the government involved in my health care or deciding what procedures are necessary for what patients. I want to know if I want something done and my insurance company doesn't cover it---I can spend my cash or I can shop for different insurance.

I don't want higher taxes for a "product" that will have no quality control other than the government.

I want choice and freedom.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:14 PM

Just got a couple of minutes while I eat lunch but would like to make 2 comments.

I find it interesting when "PM98 and Tarantulas" make a comment and really wasn't running down the speak out poster, rather religious fluff as they said, you guys jumped all over them, but when the mouth of the south "Conservababe" made such asinine comments about the lady in Jackson no one jumped on her. Want to know why, she jumped back and didn't play pretty. I never was able to get back on with her but she made stuff up, and you guys let her walk free. I would have probed her mind for her information. But then she was an internet mate matcher. LOL

Melange, you can also learn alot from Aesop's Fables. Does that mean they are to be worshiped? I am a known atheist so no need for me to say anything else about religious beliefs. By the way, I don't force my beliefs on anyone and don't want them to force theirs on me. Religious beliefs are like opinions and we all know what opinions are like.

-- Posted by cannedheat on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:34 PM

This reminds me of the bullies from grade school. They hate themselves so much that they try to project their misery onto others. As to the comment made by pm98 to the mother grieving the loss of a child, "your loved one that is now a pile of ashes is nothing more than a pile of ashes". I think the grieving mother is less in need of consoling than you are. Just a reminder: There is a difference between being open minded and cruel.

-- Posted by Smithers on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:42 PM

I don't remember being "active" on the forum that day.

I'm sure I would have had an opinion.

I've yet to see any poster that I agree with 100% of the time.

I'm sure you've seen by now that I'm not that shy.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:44 PM

To all those who have lost someone to suicide:

I am sorry for your loss. It's never nice to lose a loved one, especially under something as traumatic as a suicide. Contrary to what Dalton from 'Roadhouse' said, "Pain hurts."

Constructing an elaborate fantasy around a tragedy to make yourself feel better about the loss is counterproductive and not the road to recovering from the loss.

Using the original caller's posting (and the dogma they alluded to), I made an observation about the fantasy they have built up around their situation. They chose to air their grief in the public forum, so they are open to the scrutiny thereof. I commented on the comments of PM98. I didn't mention the situation except to comment on the other comments posted. You may disagree with my opinion, but lets leave it at that.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM

Cannedheat, Aesop's Fables, hehe...I'm in the process of re-reading these beloved tales once again for the um-teenth-time. Would you consider that worship or entertainment? And you definately can learn some lessons from Jupiter...I am about 1/4 way through the book and I count children by 8 wives and a mistress. Can you imagine his child support payments? Let alone healthcare cost! LOL

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:50 PM

I think when it comes down to it the health care system needs serious reform. I do not want universal health care as in the government picks up the tab for all. I too am like Aggiefan with a high deductible. I try not to go to the doctor but then again that is part of the problem. I don't think people going to the ER for sniffles is the problem. The problem being is many people on Medicaid, especially children, have difficulty finding a doctor. The reimbursement rates for Medicaid is so ridiculously low that most doctors limit how many they accept. So inorder to get helath treatment these people end up in the ER.

Also due to my high cost I put off going to the doctor. My insurance will not pay for check-ups (however if I were female it would) and given my family health history of diabetes, hypertension...I am at a greater risk which generally will require lab work. This is not very affordable. So I will continue to roll the dice and hope not to get snake eyes.

-- Posted by SWBG on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:51 PM

FINALLY, Annualize Medical cost inflation from 2003-2007 A whooping 9.3% average!

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:55 PM

A view of heaven

Many people who write to Speak Out have no idea there is online comment going on and really aren't putting it out there for debate (not that you can't -they just aren't aware). The other thing - when I read the Speak Out from the writer who lost a child to suicide - I thought it was the father writing about both his son and his wife's response to the death. I took it as a reminder to the public to be aware of those in danger of losing someone in this way - it can happen quicker than you think - especially with someone who is young. And the other reminder was to those thinking of ending their lives (to end their pain and the pain they "think" they are causing others) that those left, will suffer long and deeply after they are gone.

-- Posted by justforfun on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:58 PM


1) "It should be an individuals responsibility to assume their healthcare cost/insurance."

Yes. It is your responsibility as the person seeking medical care to provide for their own well being and insure themselves. Ever since I was able to have a job, and not covered under my parents insurance, I have always worked for an employer that offered or provided health insurance. I refused to work for any company that didn't care enough about its employees to provide for their care. How is this different than the government "paying" for our health care? Simple. The money I contributed from my paycheck went directly to paying for MY INSURANCE, not paying for some guy in the shipping department who decided to blow his premiums on hookers and smokes.

2) "You believe the government is inefficient in all it does, so why would healthcare be different."

Government by it's very nature is slow to react to change, grossly inefficient, and not concerned with individuals (unless your name is Terry Schiavo and you're trying to recapture the evangelical christian vote.) In a world where the government pays Haliburton $100 a load to do laundry for our troops, why do I want to give the already corrupt insurance companies an avenue to extort more money from the middle class?

It's not as if on the day they government enacted socialized medicine that they would bulldoze all the old hospitals and build new shining towers of medicine on their ruins. It would be the same providers, and the same doctors, but now with $20,000 toilet seats in the mix. It's the same care you're already getting except now, anyone and everyone can go for every little sniffle and bumped knee all with the cost being forced on the middle class.

Also, I pay 26% taxes. Why should I be forced to pay more for a service I would never use?

It's nice to think about some magical utopia where everything is free and people get along in harmony, but unfortunately, we live in the real world - where someone has to pay the check.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:59 PM

The bible is entertaining if you look at it as a story about a cosmic Jewish Zombie (who is his own father) who can make people live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

The story is really as simple as that. Throw in some adultery, gay bashing, murder, incest, A few million "begats", and advocate selling your children into slavery, and you've got a world wide best seller.

Jules Verne couldn't write better crap than that!

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:05 PM

This might be a alarming for many, WE already have UHC for a good chunk of the healthcare cost--47.2% (19.4, 14.8, 13) 2006

34.3% Private Insurance

19.4 Medicare

14.8 Medicaid

13. Other Government

11.3 Out of Pocket (deductible/uninsured)

7.2 Other Private (?)

We spend 515.2 Billion (net), which is 19% of the total Federal outlays.


-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:05 PM


We paid the "governments" share too. The answer is not more taxation. It's cutting runaway government spending to put more money in the pocket of consumers, and creating more economic and job opportunities for the middle class.

We need more choice for patients and doctors, and remove the strangle hold of government regulation that stymies competition and research in the field of medicine.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:12 PM

Thanks, SuperBethie. Is it astounding that so many people want still more laws to restrict personal freedoms? But I guess everyone has their own personal aggravations that they think government interference would assuage. Scary, isn't it?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:24 PM

melange, I don't have any figures on exploiting the welfare system...I know people who are in the system who struggle to live on what they get and are embarrassed about being on welfare.

I know many more people who are in the system who do not deserve to be, and who continually exploit it, even through the generations.

Someday, can we talk about nursing homes?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:30 PM

Tarantulas, Honestly, I'm not really for UHC. I am for affordable healthcare available to ALL, level premiums regardless of pre-existing conditions and insurance that follows the individual. Personally, don't see how ANY of the candidates are even coming close to that solution. I am FOR more regulation of insurance, drug and medical industries (goal to regulation cost). These industries should be treated like utility companies..."for the greater good".

Consumers are subject to opportunistic behaviors by these industries, as they are behaving like natural monopolies, in that they are abusing their market powers (in more than one way). Proof is in the difference of cost indexes over the last 2 decades, their profit margins, PAC monies and the insurance industry dictating the medical care of individuals.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:34 PM

gurusmom, I will concede that there are abuses, but the numbers can not be as high as I think most assume they are. Only 23% of Medicaid Enrollees are Adults, who must be very poor to meet the guidelines (posted complete breakdown earlier).

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:39 PM

All women on welfare whom continue to pop out babies are welfare abusers. (Along with the deadbeat dads)

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:43 PM


The "Greater Good" has gotten us in trouble so many times, and the only people it has served are the corporations the politicians deemed worthy of our tax money. How many times have we bailed out Amtrack? How far will be go into debt bailing out banks for their 0% down housing loans?

You can blame Nixon for selling out our insurance needs to the greedy corporations by creating the regulator bodies that gave birth to the HMOs.

Regulation curbs competition, and hurts consumers.

If you are looking for answers to the health care issue, look no further than candidates who wish to remove the barriers between patients and doctors, and want to give consumers MORE choices, not less.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:46 PM

I hate regulated utilities.

Regulated utilities prohibit me from choosing another provider.

At one home we moved into....Ameren took 101 days to install a utility pole and to provide us with service.

If not for regulation--I could have chosen another provider.

Plus..if one provider raises their rates...you cannot choose another company with a lower rate.

I completely hate regulated utilities.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:49 PM

Gurusmom, I to know of some people who get free help for almost everything and are perfectly capable of working and paying for things, just as I do. There are a few who I know who need help and can't for the life of them get it. Why do you think that is? How and when are they (the government or whoever needs to do it) going to stop it?

-- Posted by Twiggy60 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:51 PM

Do you know how hard Charter fought to keep cable service in Cape regulated by the city?

They finally lost their battle, now other companies can movie in on their market and use their lines to sell a better product at a lower price.

Consumers win thanks to deregulation!

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:51 PM


"How and when are they (the government or whoever needs to do it) going to stop it?"

When voters stop waiting for someone else to fix the problem for them.

Vote for candidates who seek to do away with government agencies and policies that hurt consumers, and sell our interests to the highest foreign bidder.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:54 PM

Tarantulas, being sarcastic now, but no crap. Just because we vote for someone who says they will fix these problems, doesn't mean they will actually do it. So it will remain the same, until we actually get someone in office who will do the right things. Unfortunately we don't have a crystal ball to see who will do what they really say, all we can do is hope that we get the right person in office who will what's right. If they (meaning government officals) had to live one month the way we do on our income and on health care then they might want to finally do something for the lower class people.

-- Posted by Twiggy60 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 2:59 PM

Bethie, Regulated utilities are NOT the reason there is only one provider. It is not economically feasible for competition to enter the market (natural monopoly). The regulation is designed to protect consumers from problems like you described.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:00 PM

Spidey found this for you


Therefore, objectively, suicide is a mortal sin. (Moreover, to help someone commit suicide is also a mortal sin.) Here though we must remember that for a sin to be mortal and cost someone salvation, the objective action (in this case the taking of one's own life) must be grave or serious matter; the person must have an informed intellect (know that this is wrong); and the person must give full consent of the will (intend to commit this action). In the case of suicide, a person may not have given full consent of the will. Fear, force, ignorance, habit, passion, and psychological problems can impede the exercise of the will so that a person may not be fully responsible or even responsible at all for an action. Here again the Catechism states, "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide" (#2282). This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it does make us realize that the person may not be totally culpable for the action because of various circumstances or personal conditions.

That is what I was talking aobut earlier.

-- Posted by SWBG on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:02 PM

If you look at the generational welfare folks, you might notice a trend. They aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. Why is that? Part of it is because our socialized education system has worked very well in growing the 'unwashed masses' to be controlled. Keep them dumb, distracted and they will serve no matter how blatantly you (the government) are evil.

It's the whole give a man a fish or teach a man to fish deal. We have pretty successfully trained a big portion of our people to just shut up and take the fish. This country was founded on the teach a man to fish ideal. Not only that, but if you figure out a better way to fish, then you can have more fish and that's alright too!

UHC is just another tool in the aresenal to further us towards a totally socialist state. Sure, socialism looks good on paper, but it doesn't work out in real life. Take a look around.

It's all a part of a system. A system designed to keep you and me and everyone else under the thumb of a few elite.

-- Posted by jumpinjehova on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:05 PM


Voting records speak volumes about how a politician will perform... that, and who their business partners are in their private lives.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:15 PM

Thanks ALL for the interesting discussion today! You ideals helped me see both side of this issue and opened my mind to alternative solutions. And hope my research sharing didn't get on anyone's nerves. :-/

I was astonished, thought you might find the facts interesting too.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:19 PM

short white bald guy:

I see what you're saying now...

"Well Billy was molested by a priest when he was 8, so he was only 30% at fault for committing suicide."

Too bad god isn't a State Farm claims adjuster.

Let's remember that the head of the catholic church said recently that anyone who isn't catholic is going to hell. They are so busy trying to keep their empire of fear out of hock they will say almost anything to not offend their membership all the while trying to "scare" up some new recruits.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:23 PM

Hey, Spidey, good to see you back!

I've seen that posted before--that the elderly receive health care for free. This is not correct.

Those on Medicare pay almost $100 a month for the Part D Medicare (which partially pays for doctors' visits). Most also pay for supplemental insurance (at a average rate of almost $200 monthly), because the Medicare deductibles & co-pays are incredibly high. (I might add, Medicare only pays a portion of any medical bills, sometimes much less than 50% of charges. You might see a $3,500 charge for medical treatments, & Medicare would only approve $700 or so. There is a HUGE discrepancy between most charges & Medicare's "approved rate." This is why so many doctors do not accept Medicare.) Then there is Part D ($40 and up) which helps pay for prescriptions--until you hit the "donut hole." Without the Part B & supplements, the elderly have to pay for the difference between medical charges & what Medicare will pay. All this on an average of $12,000 or less SS income.

So, no, the elderly do not get free health care, whether or not they buy the extra insurance, you guys. And unfortunately, we are too old to consider having babies so we might qualify for Medicaid payments. ~wink~

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:27 PM


Just wondering if you ever seen an issue not involving a conspiracy?

-- Posted by SWBG on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:32 PM

Gotta love George Carlin:

I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. I am George Carlin.

I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some mid level governmental functionary be it Democratic or Republican!

I'm in touch with my feelings and I like it that way

I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer, it makes you a smart American.

I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized, and does not entitle you to anything.

I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, try to do it in English.

I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July.

I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God when and where they want to.

My heroes are John Wayne, Babe Ruth, Roy Rogers, and whoever canceled Jerry Springer.

I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor.

I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about it.

I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts now, when I'm freezing during these long winters and paying, paying,! paying?

I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty years In the desert after getting chased out of Egypt. I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you! So, shut-up already.

I want to know which church is it exactly where the Reverend Jesse Jackson practices, where he gets his money, and why he is always part of the problem and not the solution. Can I get an AMEN on that one?

I think the cops have every right to shoot you if you're running from them.

I also think they have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the law, regardless of what color you are.

And, no, I don't mind having my face shown on my drivers license. I think it's good..... and I'm proud that "God" is written on my money. I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't want you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the world for the next four years.

I dislike those people standing in the intersections trying to sell me crap or trying to guilt me into making "donations" to their cause. These people should be targets.

I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes two parents.

If this makes me a BAD American, then yes, I'm a BAD American.

We need our country back!

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:34 PM

Librule, where'd the Carlin monologue come from? Some of those don't sound like things he would say. Most do , but not all.

-- Posted by jumpinjehova on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:49 PM

SuperBethie - have to be careful what one wishes for with deregulated utilities. And I figure as long as I'm going to dig myself a hole here, may as well be a big'un!

Suggest that one of the original purposes of regulated utilities way back when was to avoid having multiple sets of lines carrying the same stuff running down the street / road. In agreeing to enjoy a monopoly service, also agreed to have the rates regulated.

With present day electric deregulation, instead of having one entity providing the power generation, transmission, and distribution functions as a bundled package - these functions have been separated, with some companies forced to sell their generating assets (power plants) in order to keep their distribution business.

Suggest that in most cases, the company that maintains or builds the lines to your house remains as a monopoly and continues to collect a fee for that service. However, with deregulation, one has the choice on whose power or whose communication signal is brought in over those lines.

Deregulation in the power industry has not worked as well as originally hoped in many cases, resulting in higher rates for many. However, depending on how the state's deregulation structure was set up, it is too late to go back - assets were sold off. So those people are essentially stuck.

I suggest that Missouri was pretty smart in this regard - taking a wait-and-see approach - not completely ruling out deregulation for electricity, but not jumping on the nationwide bandwagon for it, either.

Further suggest to look at actual numbers of regulated versus deregulated versus cooperative sources. A cooperative by definition is a not-for-profit entity, yet I just figured a utility bill for an East Cape residence that used 1480 kilowatt-hours, resulting in a $157 bill, if I read the chart right. That same amount of electric usage in Cape using Ameren's rate structure would result in an $83 bill. Even in the summer months, where Ameren uses a different 'summer' rate, the bill would be $134.

Can deregulation work? Yes it can - just look at the success in the communications industry where there is active price competition. Suggest that the problem, at least with electric deregulation, was that the power system was not 'in-balance' as far as supply and demand in that region whenever deregulation was enacted. This allowed for some serious price imbalances and extremes which got passed on to the end-user.

-- Posted by fxpwt on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:50 PM

True, Librule. If a low-income person or family are on Medicaid, and need medical care for something like a kidney or sinus infection, breast cancer, broken bones, etc., that's acceptable to me.

However, getting pregnant and having the taxpayers foot the doctors' & hospital bills is not--at least not after the first baby. Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

When my oldest son was 2, it was discovered that he had a brain tumor. The doctors operated, but he died a few months later. No insurance back then. It took us 8 years to pay off all the bills, including the bills for the baby I had the day after he died. Maybe things like that are what make me so insensitive when it comes to people having children when they know someone else will be footing the bill.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:52 PM


I am a fan of the 'You Are All Diseased' bit.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:53 PM


don't know other than a cousin of mine forwarded to me. I have heard Carlin is not as liberal as many believe.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:58 PM

short white bald guy:

Yes, I've seen a couple of organizations that are 100% on the up and up..

Keebler Elves.. Rice Krispy dudes.. past that, get ready for scrutiny.


The poor and aged are covered. If you can't pay your medical bills, there are a million government agencies waiting to pick up the tab, assuming you meet their requirements for aid. This doesn't affect what your average retired person is paying for health care on top of what the government already covers of course.. but neither does what I would get under socialized medicine with the premiums I already pay.

People who have needs will always receive help.. whether the government is involved or not. People who abuse the system (as you mentioned in the tail end of your post) should be dealt with accordingly.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:03 PM

My opinion on de-regulation only comes from personal experience.

I'm not an expert on the subject and don't proclaim to be.

In regulated Illinois--it took me 101 days to get electric service. That is a ridiculous amount of time and a letter to the appropriate commissions and public officials resulted in being brushed aside.

In de-regulated Texas--when our provider began to raise rates rapidly during the summer cooling months we changed companies and our bill remained reasonable.

I simply prefer the idea of competition. It forces companies to have to produce what consumers want at the rate they are willing to pay.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:08 PM


"success in the communications industry where there is active price competition." ehhhh...hehe I guess we have different views on the concept of success? In some states, CO comes to mind, service as been lost in rural areas because of deregulation.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:14 PM


Thats the risk you take by living in the middle of nowhere. Lots of people in North Dakota don't have power service at their homes.. and with 14 people per square mile, I can understand why.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:16 PM

Short Bald White Guy

Don't you find it amusing that there is nothing but conspiracy talk surrounding Bhutto's assasination, but if it involves anything American, then conspiracy is just too far-fetched? Don't you see that when folks from other countries look at things like JFK, Election 2000 or 9/11 they can see the obvious conspirical connections even though our leaders say over and over 'there's no conspiracy!'

Take Election 2000. If there was a hotly contested race for president, and it all came down to the state where one of the candidate's brother were governor and the Supreme Court (which is made up of plenty of appointees of your father and his cronies) proclaimed you the winner in a decision that was limited to this and only this election... If we saw this happening in Italy or France or Saudi Arabia, we would be condemming that government for obvious voter fraud and election tampering. Here? Why there's no conspiracy, just shut up and watch your American Idol and enjoy your wonderful economy.

-- Posted by jumpinjehova on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:18 PM

If our elected officials had to "...live one month the way we do on our income and on health care then they might want to finally do something for the lower class people" it wouldn't change a thing...because they would know that after that month, they'd go back to their high-paying, large-perks jobs. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt, there is no way I believe that they really care about anything except garnering votes and maintaining their own power and wealth. If they actually gave us everything we might need, then what platform could they possibly run on next election?

Solution? Voting "average" Americans into office? You know, the ones who know how to budget, set priorities (do we really need the bridges to nowhere, million-plus government buildings, etc?), have no political party or lobbyist to account to?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:21 PM

Tarantulas, Very true...and figured Hilleco would be the one catch that point. Much more I could share, but don't think anyone here really cares about CO's woes. LOL

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:22 PM

Thank God Jeb & the Supremes conspired to save us from Algore. As bad as Bush is... Pres. Algore?

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:25 PM

I would wager that the familes of the dead American soldiers might would like to have that one back.

-- Posted by jumpinjehova on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:27 PM


I blame Bender.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:29 PM

That **** Bender!!

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:32 PM

Thanks for the George Carlin stuff, Librule! For a comedian, he certainly did say some great things...Too bad we can't all present these to our politicians and insist they abide by them. Thinking the majority of the American people agree with all or most of it. Loved the one about Jesse Jackson!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:33 PM


You have a point. (Even though 2000 Election was ligit).

But remember, it was Clinton/Gore Admin. that sat around and did nothing when terrorists were planning 9/11. Nor did anything about any terrorist attack. Gore as Pres. after 9/11? While gore was having tea with Osama and discussing each others feelings, and how much US taxpayer dollars it would take to buy off Al-Queida, terrorists would have been blowing up rest of America killing many more than have died in Iraq.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:42 PM

Spidey, not sure I understand what you are saying about the "poor and aged" being covered by many agencies. MO welfare income limit for Medicaid is somewhere just over $700 a month. So, $10,000-$12,000 in average annual SS benefits disqualify the elderly from any program I've seen. Not sure about the nursing home residents who do not have the $4,000 (low figure, but going by average rates here in Bollinger County) and up monthly rates that they charge. Might be a different scale for Medicaid to help pay for their care?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:45 PM

Not much has changed here has it?

So,suicide is a sin!What!this is news?

I have to wonder why Tarantula finds it necessary to attack the beliefs of others.

Everyone knows he is a non-believer yet he

continues to argue Religion.His comments

were not necessary to debate his point!

I have heard no one today attack the fact that he is lost!I would hope he would refrain from his insensitive remarks as well as others in here today.Does it make me less a Man then he because I am a Christian?

I see he can google Biblical books and verses very well!Thats the wonderful thing about the Bible,any subject and I do mean ANY,can be related to the Bibles teachings.

The problem lies with the interpretation!

In short Tarantulas,you milk your cow and we believers will milk ours!

This is not meant to be hateful just wish we

could debate without hatred and personal belief attacks!

Happy New Year everyone

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:47 PM

If you liked Carlin you should like this one:


And I wouldn't care what party he represented.

My Fellow Americans:

As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed. Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.

This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now time to begin the reckoning.

Before me, I have two lists. One list contains! the names of countries that have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there.

The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.

Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.

The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption. Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France.

In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home.

On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, or maybe China.

To Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Yo, boys. Work out a peace deal now Just note that Camp David is closed. Maybe all of you can go to Russia for negotiations. They have some great palaces there. Big tables, too. By the way Palestinians, we are no longer going to restrain Israel!

I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia Thanks for all your help, comrades.

We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.

I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers, and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.

A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not ******* us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple of extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your oil.

Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty---starting now. We are sick and tired of the one-way highway.

It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, "darn tootin."

Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America. It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America.

To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget. To the nations on List 2, a final thought. Go to Hell. God Bless America. Thank you and good night.

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier!!!!!!!!!

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:49 PM

It was the Bush folks that were driving the Taliban around Texas talking oil deals just months before 9/11. Not sure how far off that is from your 'having tea with Osama' comment that is. But this one really happened. Bush and his family were having tea with the bin Ladens decades before 9/11 and still do..

-- Posted by jumpinjehova on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:51 PM


Yea, saw that on the news.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:55 PM

If the poor and aged are being taking care of by so many millions of goverment agencies out there how come there are so many homeless people out there??

I use to work for an Supplemental Ins Co and if it weren't for that Supplement they get, some people would have to pay a fortune for their doctor bills, that medicare does not cover. There are so many that can't afford it though, and yet they don't get help from any of these agencies.

I have a sister who is on Medicare and they help her with the major things, but anything that isn't major forget it, it won't be covered and she can't get help for anything else or from anyone else. If she could I would love to know where she can get the help from.

I also have a daughter with 2 children, she can't get crap out of anyone. She doesn't qualify for any government help, unless she quits her job to stay home, and to me that defeats the purpose.

-- Posted by Twiggy60 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 5:01 PM

Mostly a really good, lively, and intelligent comment section today!

Just hope binker & elg63701 don't check in! Binker commented on 12/31, "...need to get your own chatroom...I for one am sick of you all and your opinions..." Wonder which one of you was forcing him/her to read them? ;)

SE Missourian has done a great thing here: People discussing topics & issues back & forth, people sharing opinions. I believe that this comment section has done, and will do, a lot of good for the public of this area. Oh, okay, I do wish some of our discussions could be more civil, and our minds more open. If this were a private chatroom, I, for one, would never have found it. THANK YOU, SE Missourian!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 5:14 PM

Librule, where did that "speech" come from? Very, very good.

Why is it, do you think, that our politicians believe they know better than us what our country needs? Every time I hear Hillary talking about her "experience," it crosses my mind that a politican's experience has nothing to do with the experience the average American has in dealing with and solving problems. Politicians' "experience" has not been proven to improve much of anything.

As it turns out (please don't hit me!), maybe some of those countries who did not stand beside us during the "Iraq conflict" may not have been totally wrong, as it turns out.

At any rate, guess my opinion is that we should seldom send foreign aid to any country until all our needs are met in this country.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 5:28 PM

jumpinjehova "Hey, Mr. Taliban"

Right you are,jumpinjehova, and, lest we forget, that the Chief UNOCAL oil negotiator to the Taliban, was a man by the name of Hamid Karzai. After the Bush government attacks Afghanistan, unprovoked, they bring Hamid to Afghanistan and crown him president. That works out perfectly for those elitists in Europe and America, as the US take over of Afghanistan gets the drugs flowing once again. The Taliban had shut it down, but that didn't set well with the globalists. They wanted the drug production started back up and the flood of drugs to Europe and America, because there was money to be made. Hamid Karzai, our stooge president of Afghanistan, has a brother Wali, Wali is one of, if not the top drug trafficer in Afghanitan.

It sure helps to have Bush family connections.

If you don't believe me, read about Mena, Akransas and the little thing that Poppa Bush and Bill Clinton had going on down there, back in CONTRA times.

-- Posted by Brill on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 5:40 PM

The Speakout caller is so right about making birth control easily available to girls and women, especially those least able to be responsible parents. But try telling that to some very powerful lobbying groups in this country, such as abstinence-only programs and my own Catholic Church.

-- Posted by grisgris on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 5:41 PM

jumpinjehova... I was referring to the Harry Belefonte song..."Hey, Mr. Taliban, tally me banana."

-- Posted by Brill on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 5:41 PM

Foreclosures & Neocons on CSPAN-2 tonight

At ten minutes to Six tonight on CSPAN-2, channel 29, there will be a program on Mortgage forclosures.

At 7:26pm, there will be a "forum" by the #2 Israeli lobby group in the US, the American Enterprise Institute. The topic is "The Crisis in Pakistan."

Interestingly, the forum will be led by Danielle Pletka, a radicalized, extremist, and self-described Zionist. Pletka lobbied the Bush government for war with Iraq. When Poppa Bush came up with the Iraq Study Group to get his son off the hook for the bloodshed in Iraq, it was Danielle Pletka, who screamed loudly against that plan, and came up with the SURGE plan. Which Bush adopted, and uses it to continue the killing of thousands of Iraqis, and the imprisonment of well over 70,000 more.

The Israeli Lobby group, American Enterprise Institute will repeat the forum on CSPAN-2 tonight at 11:40pm and again at 5:25 in the morning on CSPAN-2, in caqpe and jackson cable channel 29.

-- Posted by Brill on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 5:49 PM


What is your opinion on a Portland, Maine school board's decision to offer birth control pills to 11 year old girls?

.....the Fox News story continues.

"Right now seven states: Connecticut, Hawaii, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Washington and New Hampshire have no parental notification laws concerning abortion. That means that if young girls in those states get pregnant, Planned Parenthood can set up the abortion and parents will never know."


Making birth contol available to 11 year old girls, in school, is problematic, in my opinion. It will be only time, before the girls will be able to get the pills without their parents consent. The media they are surrounded by, the Brittany Spears, her pregnant 16 year old sister, Paris Hilton, and all that Hollywood trash, glorifying out of wedlock motherhood, and the internet makes it difficult to encode moral behavior upon your pre-teens and teens. Hollywood glorified drug use, in movie after movie in the 70's and the 80's, and you can see the result in the drug problem that we have now.

I am not for the government setting ages of consent, or, other rules about sexual behavior. As in the instance a couple months ago about two teens, where the boy went to prison. Sexual behavior rules should be set by the parent, and the church. When goverment gets involved, whatever the cause, it seems to screw it up royally.

-- Posted by Brill on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 6:05 PM

Before quoting George Carlin or any other "celebrity", I would advise checking with Snopes.com. Most of these are found to be false.

-- Posted by Red_Rhino on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 6:26 PM

Hello, Fletcher:

"...Connecticut, Hawaii, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Washington and New Hampshire have no parental notification laws concerning abortion."

My opinion (although you didn't exactly ask for it LOL): Not just abortion--but parents should have the right to know what their children are doing. Generally, parents are held responsible for their children's actions. Therefore, they should be informed when their children do something that is illegal, immoral, unethical, stupid, etc. How can a parent have control & fulfill what should be their parental duties if they are unaware?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 6:31 PM

BTDT: Falsely attributed to Carlin or not, the list was great!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 6:32 PM

I'm not the most informed person around, which I'm sure will be pointed out shortly, but I am not aware of any laws against cell phone usage in vehicles in this part of Missouri.

Even if there were such a law, in this case, what would be the difference if the officer were on the cell phone, or conducting official communications via radio? Both are still driving distractions.

Suggest that if the phone is the officer's personal cell, the minutes would be hard to track - especially if a TracFone, Net10 phone, or other service that utilizes the anonymous purchase of bulk minute cards is in play. Not to mention privacy issues and the wonderful world of litigation which that area gets into.

Does it really matter why a wreck occured? Perhaps stiffer penalties, such as the extremely radical suggestion of a mandatory driver license suspension for the at-fault party, would cover the bases without the need to prove the 'why' - whether it be alcohol or drug intoxication, cell-phone usage, mechanical failure, or just plain operator incompetence or indifference.

-- Posted by fxpwt on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:08 PM

I'm not sure which other states these laws went into effect but in California

1) There is a no smoking ban in a vehicle with a minor in the car.

2) Teen-age drvers cannot use a cell phone, period. Even with headsets. No text msg too.

-- Posted by Aggiefan/Twiggy on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:38 PM


I apologize for not being more expicit. Yes, I was seeking your opinion. Yours, is exactly as mine on parental rights/obligations. I found it odd that some school districts want to hold the parent liable for turancy, when the government would allow your 15 year old daughter obtain an abortion without your knowledge, or, permission.

This has not change under SIX years of Republican total rule in Congress, the Presidency, and the Supreme Court. I could talk about why the notion that we need to elect Republicans to obtain "good" judges, is totally unfounded concept,however, it takes time to develop and tonight I wish to watch some videos, including the TIME MACHINE, and, ARSNEIC AND OLD LACE. Repubican judges have been the ruin of this nation, as has those who were selected by Democrats. Neither now uphold their oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. In fact, several US Supereme Court Judges, Democrats and Republicans have stated that they believe that they should take European law into consideration when deciding cases before them.

-- Posted by Brill on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:11 PM

That there are those who Text message while driving is a very scary thought.

If you do a search on "smoking in cars unlawful", or, something similar, you will find a whole host of bans that are on the books, or, which are being considered.

New Jersey has at least one town which has banned smoking, while a child is in the car, and the state is said to be considering the same.

A search should show a variety of bans that are in effect, or, have been considered. One, which I have not confrimed by other sources, is a Home Owners Association case against a couple who where prohibited from smoking in their town house.

America is not as free as many of us believe it to be.

-- Posted by Brill on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:20 PM

Mr Fletcher,

In some parts if not all of California, if you rent an appartment you can not smoke in it. And yes, they are banning smoking if with a minor in a car, but they are also trying to get it passed that you can't smoke in your home if you have kids.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:34 PM

A bunch of non-believers discussing what Christians believe about Christianity. You folks crack me up.

In Mark 3: 28-29 Jesus says, "Truly I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

In Luke 12:8-10 Jesus says,"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

To Protestants and Mormons, the only sin unforgivable is to blaspheme (dishonor or address God with irreverence.) However, Calvinists are a notable exception; instead claiming that since Christ is not on Earth but in Heaven, therefore no man on Earth can commit an unforgivable sin against Christ.

Please don't lump all Believing denominations in with Catholics.

PS. info from Wikipedia.

-- Posted by John in Jackson on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:16 PM

New rule for SpeakOut (opinion btw):

1. Only Christians can discuss Christianity.

2. Non-Christians have no say what's so ever.

3. Only Believers can believe in what they believe, and those that don't believe can't believe what they believe.

4. Only certain Christians can say what the Bible tells other Christians and non-Christians.

5. And finally, only Christians can read or quoate the Bible.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:41 PM

lol @ pups

-- Posted by MOJO_at_SEMO on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:03 PM

Please don't lump Catholics in with all the other believing denominations - that would be unchristian.

-- Posted by DickCheney on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:34 PM

Hey John - you crack!

-- Posted by DickCheney on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:36 PM

I believe a person would be in extreme mental anguish to commit suicide; the last thing they're thinking is if they're hell or heaven bound...

-- Posted by sosassy on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 5:59 AM

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