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Speak Out 12/11/07

Tuesday, December 11, 2007

Grateful family

I WOULD like to say thanks. We never know at what time in our life we might end up needing some help. My husband was laid off from his job, and things are not the greatest. I got a call inviting my little girl to shop with a hero at Wal-Mart. I would just like to thank the Cape Girardeau Police Department, Wal-Mart and the school or anybody else who had anything to do with that. And I want to thank the person or persons who left the three boxes of groceries without a note at my doorstep. You'll never know how much that meant to us as a family. Thank you so much.

Thanks to city workers

I'D LIKE to thank the Jackson city workers for picking up my trash every Thursday morning. We appreciate you guys. All God's blessings upon you and yours this Christmas and New Year's season.

Double-booking

IT SEEMS that many doctors' offices are factories instead of health-care providers. The sad fact is that it is the same everywhere. There are even a few places that double-book appointments then allow walk-ins as well. This doesn't benefit anyone but only extends the wait time for those who really need to be seen. Maybe when these places start losing patients, they will finally open their eyes.

System breakdown

I'M TIRED of being told that the murders and incidents surrounding the murders in Jackson are none of my business. As a citizen of Jackson and as a human being, I believe this is my business. People are dead, including innocent children. We deserve a full investigation into this matter. There was a breakdown somewhere in our system that should have provided help to this family in time of crisis. That is our business. We may not be able to change events of the past, but we can learn from them.

Special workers

I WANT to say a big thank you to all the workers at nursing homes in our area. It takes a special kind of person to work in this type of facility. If you have family members or know someone in a nursing home, please take the time to remember them and to bring some pleasure into their lives by taking the time for a visit. I am blessed in some way each time I visit my family member.

GOP blocks progress

CONSISTENT WITH the stance of standing in the way of progressive legislation on almost every front, Senate Republicans are promoting greenhouse gas emissions, preventing increased fuel efficiency in vehicles and blocking the requirement of renewable energy use by utilities. Evidently these Republicans want the U.S. to run out of energy as the planet fries. The only way to get progress is to defeat all of these Bush puppets.

License issues

ACCORDING TO David Griffith with Missouri Department of Revenue, the state requires people who have lost their license for whatever reason to return to their home state, "resolve those issues" and reapply for a Missouri driver's license. This procedure, he advises, keeps those with driving issues from driving in our state legally. Actually, what this does, besides put an often-insurmountable burden upon those unlicensed drivers, is to assure that Missouri will continue to have people driving in our state illegally. Perhaps a better way to handle it would be to consider the seriousness of out-of-state charges and to incorporate a way for those drivers to pay their out-of-state fines without traveling across the country to "resolve" the issues.

Standing in line

THIS IS a simple, basic memo for all holiday shoppers. It is what I call the Concept of a Line. A line to check out starts where you see all the people standing by the registers. You do not get to jump the line for "a simple question." Once you leave your spot in that line, you are forfeiting that spot to the person behind you.

School money

$700,000 IS a lot of money. If the Cape Girardeau School District continues its pattern of reacting to poor financial and educational decisions like it has in the past, how will it gain any public trust with needed bond issues? We trust the school board to hire a good leader, and we trust that leader to hire good administrators and so on down the line. Where did this process fail us? There are a lot of us who have paid our taxes in good faith to see this enormous amount of money absolutely wasted.

Educate everyone

THE RECENT story on No Child Left Behind illustrates a disturbing perception concerning our public schools. I felt one comment was particularly accurate: "The law has forced schools to focus on all students." Isn't this what the role of the public schools is? I have found it interesting to see how the different districts feel about the government insisting that taxpayer-financed schools educate all of the students. Schools need to do what they are supposed to be in place to do: educate all the students.

Prosecutor's job

A SOUTHEAST Missouri State University student was carrying a concealed weapon and admitted that he went into a bathroom looking for a fight. Another student ended up being seriously injured. Yet our prosecuting attorney is not going to file charges? Several serious crimes have been committed here and nothing is being done. We need to elect someone who really wants to do the prosecutor's job.

Only if ...

CAN WE be honest about this? We would say it was the greatest thing since sliced bread if students from this area were doing well on No Child Left Behind requirements in general and Missouri Assessment Program tests specifically.


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Just imagine the enjoyment we will all gain when the government mandates which doctor you must to go to! There will be NO incentive for medical workers to do any customer service work when they have you as a captive patient.

Now, you wait a couple of hours to see the doctor of your choice. With government paying for medical care, after you are instructed as to which medical professional you MUST go see(not always a doctor), you will be TOLD that you WILL wait for days, weeks, or months to see that doctor, just like now happens in Canada and England, and you will not be able to walk out and go somewhere else.

-- Posted by John in Jackson on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 7:44 AM

I completely agree with you John. Also--many private companies are creating products to give you more freedom and to allow you a more hands-on approach with your health care.

Find out about Consumer-Driven Health Plans. It will be worth your time if you are unfamiliar!

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 8:18 AM

John,

You are right. Socialized medicine is not the answer here. While I find it inconvenient to wait for a couple hours to see my doctor I also know that is the norm and arrange my schedule accordingly. I beleive we need serious TORT reform as well as an overhaul of the health insurance industry. People complain that doctors double book to line their pockets. I think health insurance companies are lining their pockets 100 fold compared to doctors or hospitals.

-- Posted by SWBG on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 8:20 AM

Medicare is "socialized" medicine. I don't recall many seniors complaining about the quality of their care, limited benefits or government "mandating which doctor one must go to". The identified problem relates to the funding of this "socialized" healthcare program.

There is a need to remove PROFIT from our healthcare system, to assure affordable healthcare is available to ALL individuals in this country. Perhaps, we need to think about building upon what is already working.

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 8:37 AM

School money, Only if ... and Educate everyone: Hope each of you have emailed the School Board and will be attending the next School Board meeting, to assure your thoughts are considered!

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 8:47 AM

I goota side with you on this one Melange.

Why think out of the box on this one!Lets stay inside the box and concentrate on how to make what we have work much better!All most people want to do is use Canada and Europe as examples of what disasters could occur.I say build on their mistakes and incorporate these findings into something that can function while keeping health care affordable to all!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 8:51 AM

short white bald guy, When I stated a need to remove profit from our current healthcare system. I was including the insurance industry, as this industry indeed dictates our healthcare (for benefit/PROFIT).

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 8:54 AM

Actually...as someone who works at an insurance company..

MANY seniors complain about their Medicare. It's costly--doesn't cover very much and they STILL have to take out additional policies. It also doesn't pay in a very timely fashion a lot of the time...allowing doctors to treat them as if they are past due all the time.

And I really really think it sounds like a lot of people here need to research the new products and community initiatives that many healthcare insurance companies are using to try to drive down the cost of healthcare for the consumer. You can roll your eyes if you want...but research a little and you will see that it's out there..and it's having a positive effect.

When's the last time you looked at something other than a media outlet story or a commerical? Or that you competitively priced and took a look at the products out there instead of just blindly going like sheep into the employer-provided insurance program? Or suggested to your employer an alternative product?

Just a few questions for thought.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:07 AM

Also--if you remove profit from the system you remove competition and quality follows shortly behind.

Why would someone pay HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars to achieve the degree necessary to practice medicine or specialize if there were absolutely NO PROFIT involved?

Trash men don't work for free. Steelworkers, lawyers, grocery store checkout people...the guy at mcdonalds don't want to work for free. Why would a doctor want to work for free?

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:11 AM

melange

Yes, you do hear people on Medicare benefits complaining that it doessn't pay 100% and they must purchase supplemental policies.

Private insurance has always picked up the tab of Medicare deficiencies in any medical facility since old Lyndon got this passed. Now you want them out of the picture? Oh boy, just hang on for the ride in tax increases.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:16 AM

SuperBethie21,

I held a health and life insurance license for many years. Have you?

I am very familar with Medicare, as I have assisted three grandparent's with their on-going medical care and bills over the last 18 years. Have you?

In those years, I never had a problem with Medicare dictating their care or not paying a bill timely. (Which I can not say about the insurance company I worked for!)

In recent years, Medicare is failing to sending EOB's to the patient when Medicare has covered the expense 100 percent (which is a fairly new practice).

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:20 AM

Prosecutor's job- I think the failure to prosecute had more to do with semo not wanting to have an official crime on campus that they would have to include in their university statistics.

-- Posted by stevmo on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:21 AM

conservababe, True many find it a good investment to add additional coverage.

I am not stating the program is perfect or covers everything, however Medicare coverage is affordable and much better than NO coverage at all.

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:24 AM

System breakdown--If you want to help you could let local shelters know that your home is available when families in need approach the shelters for help but don't meet their criteria.

-- Posted by stevmo on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:26 AM

John in Jackson & short white bald guy:

Hate to inform you, but your insurance carrier already dictates who you can see. Sure you can see someone out of their network, but it will cost you more. They already dictate what procedures they will and will not pay for. And if you are a woman, how many paps and mams they will pay for in a given year. (Unless their is written proof that a second or third are required from your doctor.)

As far as hospitals, well lets just say I know of one local hospital that has raised the prices of services at least 3 times in the last two years. Not saying they haven't had to in order to recover the costs incured in doing business. But, part of that is because the hospital is already dictated to by Medicade and Medicare what they will pay, requardless of what the hospital charges.

But, like I have stated before. My doctor schedules me at X time and sees me withing 10 min of X time and discusses with me all my concerns before he leaves the room. And my insurance pays 80% of my costs. I need to thank him on my next visit.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:27 AM

SuperBethie21, I will agree removing profits will be challenging and have obsticles that will need to be identified and overcome.

Pups, Let me see... that hospital you mentioned that raised their cost, just expanded and/or has plans to expand because they are "making too much money" for a non-profit company.

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:41 AM

Oh, and since the topic is on what you pay as far as hospitals are concerned.

I understand the upgrades to medical care. That is required in offering quality of healthcare to the area, such as a new MRI machine, or updated lab equipment and the latest in noninvasive laser equipment. All of these are in keeping up with medical advancements. But, also realize that by now getting Wi-fi, emails to patients, cappachino machines in the waiting rooms, recliners in the waiting rooms, shuttle service to and from the front door, valet parking, and all the other nonmedical perks to guests of patients need to get paid for from somewhere. Guess what? It is paid for by your medical bill. Which also increases as more perks are provided. Granted alot of this is done because "the other hopital provides us with this". It is competative in getting patients in the door, but just realize it might be free for you to use these perks, but there not free really. You pay for them by increased prices to the medical bill you or your family receive.

Just a thought.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:47 AM

Melange,

Yes and No. Both hospitals in the area are doing these things. And yes I understand they are in the business to make money. Nonprofit company or otherwise. They must balance what they can get paid with what they are going to lose from nonpayment from insurance, medicare, medicad, and those patients that can't afford to pay.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:00 AM

Melange--I am not a licensed insurance salesperson and have never claimed to be. My perspective on health insurance comes from a much different angle more directly related to customer service and claims. I also have direct experience as a CONSUMER of insurance of many types for many years.

I have assisted one set of my grandparents with Medicare issues...however...I talk to real-life customers in many settings all the time. Way more to base my thoughts off than just my grandparents and their experiences.

Also--to whomever was discussing the number of paps/mammograms covered in a year...

That depends entirely on your policy. You are always guaranteed at least the number required by state mandate.

Also--thanks Pups for pointing out that the machines and technology require funding the same as the salaries for doctor's and nurses.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:01 AM

Government run health care?

You people are either stupid, out of your minds, or on dope. You can actually look at the way our government screws up everything that it touches and still believe it is capable of providing health care in an efficient, cost effective, and fair manner? Our federal gov't that flushes tens of millions of our tax dollars down the toilet in Medicare/Medicaid fraud every year. The same federal gov't that has millions of dollars of cost overruns on every project that it authorizes. The federal gov't that spends $500 on a hammer , $1000 on toilet seat. You want to entrust your healthcare to the very politicians that care so much about you that they put your needs on the back burner in order to have the time to launch investigation after investigation against one another. A pack of politicians that would rather stab each other in the back day after day as opposed to working together like educated adults to solve the problems of this nation. These are the people you want in charge of your healthcare? How loud will you scream when 50+ percent of your paycheck is raped every week to pay for yet another government boondoggle? These clowns in Washington couldn't find their weenies if they were holding them in their hands, and yet they have the answers to healthcare?

Dope is a destuctive addiction. Use your private healthcare now to get cured before it's too late.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:08 AM

Folks who want socialized medicine in the US, should talk to veterans about the level of heath care they receive.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:10 AM

stev

re your post at 9:21 am

BINGO!

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:13 AM

SuperBethie21,

I mentioned the Paps and Mams. And will admit to not needing either. From what I hear and understand for both, I am extremely happy I don't. LOL

You are correct, I can only relate from my experience with working with the women that I do about how many times they can have those tests paid for by our insurance.

And, Doctor's offices, hospitals, and immediate healthcare providers are businesses. And yes their overhead cost do involve staff, equipment, and profit. Everyone knows you can't stay in business without profit. And to be perfectly honest with you I can not tell you how much profit is enough profit and how much profit is too much profit. I just know that part of that profit comes from the overchargeing of services to balance payments with nonpayments of doing business in the medical field.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:17 AM

Oh and I'm not saying its good or bad. Just that it happens. But, I'm sure part of the markup in retail is to counter shoplifting. It is the nature of doing business.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:19 AM

librule, I don't think I am "stupid, out of your minds, or on dope".

Medicare and Medicaid are NOT the same program.

Explain why the inflation rate is several times higher in healthcare than the national rate of inflation? Something is wrong with our current system! How do you plan to fix it?

Hope you or your family never learns the lesson that WILL change your perspective about the need to make healthcare affordable and available to all.

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:23 AM

I found this interesting....

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition...

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:35 AM

Librule,

I see and have talked to you about your possition on Universal healthcare. Wanted to ask you what you thought of something.

Is there a way to offer medical insurance for those that can't afford it? I'm not talking about those that already qualify for medicade.(and yes some are handouts not handups) I'm meaning the ones that happen to make just a bit more then is allowed to qualify for assistance. I honestly don't know if the insurance industry offers a sliding scale for subscribers. I don't want the scary Universal program that you mentioned. Just think if we can send billions of dollars to aid foriegn distasters, should we be able to care for US citizens? (And before Babe jumps in, LEGAL citizens. LOL just teasing you babe.)

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:38 AM

I know some things about medicaid. I am Data 48's woman and friend. In the spring of 2005 I found out I had breast cancer. I was put on medicaid for five years. I became a lab rat, but it was worth it. I am still alive! I am in my 50's and after five operations, I still have the "twins". I had brain surgery less than a year ago, after the chemo and radiation. I hope my guy reads this because he stayed with me and helped me survive! He is my hero!!!

-- Posted by Data48 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:40 AM

Medicare is affordable, unless of course you are a tax payer. Why would you want to take a program that we can barely afford to fund as it is and expand it to include everyone? Your taxes will go up far more than it would cost you to buy your own individual private health insurance policy.

Re: GOP blocks progress

Absolutely. The GOP deserves a standing ovation for standing in the way of the "progressive" legislation that you have mentioned. Global warming is a natural cycle. The temperature of the earth is 1/2 of 1 degree higher today than it was 100 years ago....far from the "planetary emergency" you and others like you are claiming. A look at the actual scientific evidence will clearly show that there is no evidence that man had anything to do with it. The earth's climate has been far warmer, as well as far colder LONG before man was around. It has been warming and cooling in cycles throughout the entire history of the planet. Other planets in the solar system are warming at the same rate as the earth. Back in the 70's, this same pollution that they are now claiming is "warming" the planet was then being claimed to "cool" the planet and was going to send us into the next ice age if nothing was done to stop it. "Man-made" global warming is a hoax, and after the government has used it to kill the economy by passing new laws and regulations that will kill industry in the US, those jobs will go overseas and you will be complaining about that.

Re: License issues

The roadways are my office. I spend a lot of time there. Whatever can be done to keep bad drivers off the roads SHOULD be done, because if you look at the actual statistics, my job driving here in the US is MORE DANGEROUS than my brother's job in the military when he was deployed in Iraq. If you have your license suspended or revoked in one state, you should not be able to cross state lines and get a new drivers license. I wholeheartedly agree with the policy that many states have adopted (and I'm sure there are federal transportation dollars involved in the decision) to refuse licenses to individuals who are suspended or revoked in other states. When ALL drivers have to start abiding by the rules and regulations in place that I have to follow every time I get behind the wheel, I MIGHT start feeling sorry for you....no, scratch that...I STILL won't feel sorry for you. If I were to get a ticket out of state, I would have to travel back to wherever the violation occurred in order to take care of the matter. Why should you be any different? The fact that I have a CDL also takes court supervision, driving school, or any other diversionary program meant to keep violations off of a persons MVR off the table. If I get a ticket, I either have to beat it or it goes on my record. For the people who already were without driving PRIVILEGES before they came to MO, they should have taken care of their issues BEFORE they made the move...then they wouldn't have to go 1/2 way across the country to fix their problem. It doesn't matter to me whether it was a DUI suspension or too many speeding tickets. If the state thought your violations were bad enough to suspend your license, you shouldn't be issued a new license in a new state until your old issues in your old state have been resolved.

Personally, I would like to see a law that says that if you are an unlicensed driver and are involved in a wreck of any kind, it is automatically YOUR FAULT (with criminal charges if there are any injuries) no matter what the other circumstances may be. Even if you are rear-ended, if you don't have a license you shouldn't have been there...and if you weren't there, the other person wouldn't have had anything to crash into. That is the exact same train of thought that goes into charging truckers criminally when they run over their hours by even a few minutes...same logic should apply to car drivers who are breaking the law too.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:41 AM

Librule;

NO Iam not stupid nor Am I on drugs AND I am still in control of my mind!I wonder,which one of these Politicians in our corrupt Government did you vote for!If you did not vote, then please refrain from commenting!if you did then perhaps your the one on drugs!Paranoia runs rampant among dopers!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:43 AM

sorry...that post was a little long...probably should have broken it up into 3 separate thoughts......oh well...what's done is done :p

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:44 AM

Data48 Women & friend, What a lucky lady you are to have Data48! I personally am glad you had Medicaid to help you in very difficult times. Best of luck!

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:46 AM

If any of you ladies are thinking of arming yourself because of the recent murders and confessions, you might want to hint for a gift from this site.

http://www.productwizard.com/galcoholste...

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:48 AM

Tarantulas: "Folks who want socialized medicine in the US, should talk to veterans about the level of heath care they receive."

The veterans I know seem happier with the VA than most people who use commercial insurance. Doesn't seem unusual since the VA hospitals have been whipping non-VA hospitals in quality & customer service ratings regularly for the last decade or so. Doesn't mean everybody is happy of course, roughly 20% of the patients are going to be unsatisfied with their healthcare service regardless of who it comes from.

Considering the VA care still manages to be just as effective if not more effective for a much cheaper price per patient (in spite having a much older & sicker mix of patients). However terrible the VA might be the regular health care industry is far worse.

If my choices are between a truly free market based healthcare system and socialized medicine I would probably pick the truly free market system. If my choice is between the status quo and a VA like socialized system I'd vote for a VA like system every time.

-- Posted by Nil on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:52 AM

melange

Nowhere in my post will you find that I said healthcare shouldn't be affordable to all, nor did I claim that Medicare and Medicaid are the same thing other than they are both government run programs rampant with fraud. Why is healthcare costs increasing faster than inflation? For one, government bureacracy, waste, fraud, and inefficiency. When a madicare patient recieves $1000 worth of healthcare but to gov't says it will only pay $500, who do you think picks up the tab for the remaining $500? Correct, it's passed on to the folks with private health insurance causing the premiums to rise. My wife and I are not drug users, but yet the gov't says our health insurance carrier must provide coverage for addiction treatment whether we want it or not. My wife can no longer have children but the gov't says our carrier must provide maternity coverage whether we need it or not. If I wish to purchase health insurance why should the gov't force me to buy coverage I neither need nor want? Why shouldn't we be able to buy a policy tailored to our specific needs and not have to pay for coverage we don't need? Do I have all the answers to healthcare? NO. But what I do know is that government is not the answer. If your car broke down you wouldn't take it to a mechanic that has proven to be incompetent, but yet you would turn your healthcare over to a government that has proven to be incompetent. And that my dear truly baffles me.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:57 AM

I think we agree it is only fair healthcare/ insurance should be available to all, RIGHT? Now do we agree it should be affordable (even if this individual is unhealthy)? Do we agree that healthcare cost has risen 4-5 fold that of that normal inflation rate for the last 2 decades?

Okay then. What are YOUR solution(s)?

(Errrr...Like so many other topics, SOME will NOT open their minds and actually SHARE their ideas that lend to FINDING solutions! All they do is complain about the government or "cleverly" shoot down other's thoughts who are seeking answers to social issues.)

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:00 AM

Re: pups

When you own what you have, you don't have to make as much to be able to afford far more. When the money you make today was spent 6 months ago on things you didn't really need (new car, big screen HDTV, etc.), you have a tough time being able to afford the necessities today. Unfortunately, too many people just HAVE to have things they can't afford, and in order to be ABLE to afford them, they take risks...such as going without insurance, or living paycheck-to-paycheck with no savings account. It is not a necessity that they do so, but rather a choice. Then they complain to the government that they can't afford insurance and expect the tax payers to provide them with something they SHOULD have made a higher priority in their own life. I have looked into insurance on my own, away from my employer and I could actually get the exact same policy...same coverage, same company, same deductible, same everything...on my own for less than it costs me to go through the employer. It really isn't all that expensive if you buy what you need and aren't forced by the government to have more coverage than necessary.

The answer is to live within your means...and to have less government involvement in your life, not more.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:09 AM

melange

You invite debate, but only allow it from your own stance, then get angry.

Now where in the Constitution does it say that medical insurance is a RIGHT? Yet you assume we all agree that it is and move on to AFFORDABLE. You cannot move on until you correct your first assumption.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:10 AM

librule, I would imagine there is just as much fraud in the private health insurance industry. Guess who pays for that too?

The Medicare reduced payment, could be viewed the way your view it (and indeed is included in the financial information to determine others' cost). It could also be viewed that Medicare pays "fair" rates to cover the cost of the procedure, and others, including insurance companies are being overcharged.

As far as private insurance coverage being regulated by the government, you are speaking of "group" health insurance and not individual plans. Government regulates this coverage to protect health insurance companies & employers from discriminating against an entire "class" of individuals from being excluded in the "group" health insurance plan. If you chose to buy an individual policy, the insurance company would be dictating what coverage you could buy (from a limited portfolio of individual plans they will offer you) as it is not cost effective to "tailor" an individual plan for each person.

BTW...Thanks for replying! (Love a good debate!)

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:13 AM

Nil-

The price that our Veterans paid in order to receive the care they do at the VA is far greater than any health insurance policy available in the free market. Our Veterans earned every bit of their health care cost through their service to this Country.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:16 AM

babe, ? means it is a question. Please, you are welcome to disagree. OH, I am not angry, and do like to debate a good topic. In addition, I am respectful of others opinions and I AM inviting others ideas of a solution to this topic.

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:17 AM

Nil hit the nail on the head. Truely free market system. Key words being "truely free"

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:25 AM

melange

My daughter has worked in the medical insurance field for years. Do you know what is just around the corner with the insurance companies? This is going to give you the heebee jeebies, I know. I forget the name of it but it works like this, melange.

Patients will have to take responsibility for finding the least expensive physician, test or medical facility on their own. No more contracts, lists or networks. It is sort of like your vehicle insurance where you shop for the lowest bid. Yes, things is 'a changing' even as we speak. LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:26 AM

babe, Agree with you! The health insurance & healthcare industries is always changing!

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:31 AM

hilleco

Thanks, I was begining to believe that I was the only one that didn't believe that our government is all knowing, all powerful, and the answer to every problem.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:38 AM

hilleco, We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel our government does offer a viable role in our society. Plus, your solution seems to have omitted an entire "class" of individuals, ie aged, unhealthy.

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:41 AM

dixietrucker,

I agree with you. Hell, I'm probably one of those that has way more stuff then I need. Though my budget includes my premium for medical insurance.

Librule,

Not sure what to tell you about having to pay for the things you don't want. Hell, I don't have kids, but you better believe they won't let me get away without paying the school tax every year. Can I do anything about it? No. And unfortunatly, with most insurance companies you are paying for expenses they are anticipateing in the future that is going to cost them money. But, in the long run, having insurance is a heck of alot better then not having any at all in an emergency.

Wow, think we will have a lot to discuss this friday. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:43 AM

The "role" of government is specifically limited by the Constitution. Providing health care is NOT one of their enumerated powers, and as such is NOT a role the Government should be playing.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:45 AM

Babe---

That product you are talking about is a Consumer Driven Health Plan!! The very thing I discussed in the second post of this morning that was either overlooked or criticized depending on the poster.

I'm a witness to how well it works--I'm also a participant in a plan. It is affordable!

Part of affordability is choice--

how many people are uninsured and choose to have satellite television and cars with $500/mo payments?! Is anyone taking that into consideration? I'm not saying it couldn't improve---I'm saying look at all the angles.

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:50 AM

If that consumer driven health plan has a health savings account option, it might be worth looking into. I've been leaning toward the HSA route myself...fairly low premiums paid to the insurance (in the neighborhood of $50/month), I get to decide how much extra to "save" each month, and I get to keep what I don't spend in a tax-free interest bearing account. Most of the ones I've seen are PPO's, where once the higher deductible is met, it operates similar to a traditional insurance policy.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:59 AM

melange

Private enterprise wants all the business it can possibly get. If given a TRUELY FREE marketplace, private enterprise will find a way to sell to the aged and unhealthy at affordable rates. Again, key words, TRUELY FREE.

dixietrucker

Amen. It kills me when I read some columnist or hear some talking head complain that the middle class is being squeezed, but when I look around, the middle class are buying homes larger and more expensive than they need, new car every 3 years, big screens, $300 cell phones, eat out 5 nights a week, etc., etc., and then cry when they claim they can't afford the true necessities of life. (And that's not to say ALL middle class)

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:00 PM

Bethie

Sorry, I did read your post but forgot the name you mentioned. So, evidently this is not just menu options but actually doing some comparison shopping for healthcare? I am very interested.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:00 PM

SuperBethie21,

Does or will the Consumer Driven Health Plan work the same as the auto insurance programs? I mean, if I recall, when it was mandated that all drivers have auto insurance it opened up so many markets that insurance companies, to stay competative, had to lower or taylor their policies to a wider range of affordability?

If this is the case, then you have a convert in me!! And yes, too many people choose other items in their life over health insurance.

But, that is not to say I don't want my 90 year old neighbor not to have Medicare. She had paid years into the program, why should she not benefit from it now?

And, please don't get me wrong. I don't feel that the government owes me healthcare. But if you are going to take my taxes for Medicare and Medicade it should be there if or when I need it.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:06 PM

Pups

Maybe the government could grandfather your neighbor in and wean you out? LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:11 PM

Babe,

If you are saying they can take less taxes out of my check I am all for that. I pay for my insurance now and probably always will. But, if they are going to continue to take my money, I will use the government for what I've paid for.

Oh and btw, I was weaned many, many, many years ago. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:20 PM

Well, this has been a lively discussion this am, but have to get ready for work. Will check back in with yall when I get to work.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:26 PM

In a free market system be it health care or auto insurance the supply and demand will take care of spikes in cost. Once the government puts on hands then they affect an entirely separate dynamic that does launch industry specific inflation. Leave health care and all other market place dynamics to the nature of commerce and it will run much smoother. The government can't guarantee access to medical care. It is not the government's role. Only in the last sixty years has the government morphed into this all knowing fixer of all problems. It isn't the governments role to take care of me and my family, its mine.

-- Posted by Donnie on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:30 PM

I have not heard one of you here complain about the billions of dollars this Country sends to corrupt foreign nations each year!

If we were to change our foreign policies and keep this tax money at home we could afford health coverage in some fashion.And guess what?If nothing else the amount we save in taxes could be used to offset the cost of healthcare without having the Government involved!Just my two cents worth!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:31 PM

We shouldn't be sending money overseas when we can't even balance our own budget here.

-- Posted by Donnie on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:37 PM

Dixie---

There are several options out there, some of which include HSA. They are available to individuals as well as to groups. I could provide product names but I would want you to research all your options. You can always click me on the blog column and send me an email if you want more specific details. I'll try to help you if I can. =)

Babe--

It's ok..LOL!

There is a comparison aspect to these CDHP's. For example...I can go to any provider that I wish--but some offer discounts. I can shop around to see which hospital or lab will give me the best rate. I benefit..and so does my health plan..which in turn means our rates stay low or even drop!

It's easy to use too..I can call customer service to get help or do all my own research online.

Pups--

They are lower cost that traditional health plans. They operate a little differently and sometimes that scares people. You have a "bank" that is available (if you are individual--you fund your bank with premium payments) (if you are group--your employer usually provides that starting bank). There are ways to increase your bank with incentives (such as completing an online health quiz or participating in a program where you work with a health coach). After your bank is depleted...you have a bridge. This is where people get scared--HOWEVER, the bridge is basically the same idea as a Deductible...although usually it's lower than an average deductible. If you participated in those bonus programs...your bridge decreases. Then you go to, for example, 80/20 ppo coverage. When you reach your out of pocket limit..which is much lower than standard plans..by paying your 20% for services then you are covered at 100% for the rest of the year.

If you would like a more detailed example of how it works they are out there with plan descriptions..or as above..email me and I'll be happy to help.

I don't think it would be right to deny people who have paid in to Medicare and Medicaid service. I don't know that I love the programs or that they are effective--but I definitely think you should be allowed to participate if you paid in on the assumption that it was offered.

I'm hoping to bring my blog back sometime in the near future. I'm still waiting for that 2nd trimester energy now that I have dependable internet. =)

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM

On final note for now,

Those quoating that our constitution doesn't guarentee healthcare. I may be wrong, but where in the Constitution does it say that the Government will bail out Saving and Loans, the housing market (bad loan practices), or the airlines? But they've done it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just a precident.

SuperBethie21,

Thank you for the info. I am currently happy with what I have where I work, but if ever I need to get an individual policy I am definately interested in what ever will save my pocketbook.

Grey,

Agree, and have said, if we can send billions to foriegn countries for aid, why not help legal citizens here that truely need the help. Key being 'truely' need the help, not just someone that knows how to milk the system.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 12:59 PM

GREYWOLF

Although I didn't mention specifically on the billions sent to foreign countries by our government in my earlier rant on government incompetence and waste, I certainly could have and should have. But then again I would have gotten a lecture for criticizing (due to my drug induced paranoia) our all powerful, all knowing, benevolent government. But now that I have been educated, the government that has the common sense to send billions of my tax dollars to foriegn corrupt countries is certainly the government I wish to run my healthcare. And by the way, I have voted in 100% of the elections that I have been eligible for since I turned 18 back in 1980.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 1:05 PM

Pups

They shouldn't be bailing out row boat. Its not their role. No place in the Constitution are sub-prime loans or aircraft pensions mentioned. The government needs to keep to the task of protecting our rights and leave our welfare to us.

-- Posted by Donnie on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 1:21 PM

Pups, Pups, Pups

Does the 'general welfare' clause ring a bell with you? During our forty years in the wilderness of dem control of this country, they just loved that phrase as did the judges who ruled in the name of it, MISTAKENLY, I might add. LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 1:22 PM

GOP blocks progress,

Oh no. "Senate Republicans are promoting greenhouse gas emissions.." This poster is on to our master plan of world domination through eco-destruction. Nailed. Busted. Fellow Neocons we almost pulled it off it wasn't for those pesky kids and their dog too.

I figure the more people killed in car crashes because safety standards don't match emissions requirements will increase the carbon credits allowed by big evil corporations.

Socialized Medicine

I have more respect for seniors beause what they accept as is and just drive on. Medicare has it's issues and seniors do complain, but not as much as the entitlement generation. It seems that more people from the 1970s on are more delicate or just complain a little extra.

I was raised not to cry when it hurts and work hard. I see less and less of this as the kids get younger.

My grandmother, who recently passed, had more scare tissue than an entire rugby team from all her surguries. She never complained about anything even when she was on her last leg.

Today, you see single moms ******** now because no one will help them. Not be heartless, but I didn't knock you up. McDonalds is always hiring, or become a sitter, it's all cash.

The Greatest Generation has taken more pride in personal responsiblity. I wish they could've passed more of it on.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 1:24 PM

SuperBethie21, Thanks for the information on Consumer-Driven Health Plans. I will do some more research on this topic; it does sounds intriguing!

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:00 PM

fajar

Sorry, but I disagree with you on the 'Greatest Generation' being complacent. I do respect them but I do not see through rose colored glasses. These are feisty people who won the war and they still are, really. My word, have you forgotten the 'gray panthers'? The AARP has the biggest voter block and covey of lobbyist in the US, not to mention the early buffet coupons.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:03 PM

fajar

Oh, I sent before I commented on the 'greatest generation' coming into maturity at the beginning of the biggest proliferation of social programs ever in the history of our nation.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:10 PM

Babe, babe, babe,

You're going to miss me when your gone. lol

Hope you are feeling ok today and the weather isn't playing havic with ya.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:11 PM

Oh, and babe,

Will ask again, why didn't the Republican controlled congress of the last 10 years done anything to correct the 'problems' created by the evil Dems. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:13 PM

Pups

So, tell me about the general welfare clause so that you will not be so dumb when I leave. LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:15 PM

Pups

Newt Gingrich did a lot to improve our lot in the 104th congress, the first after forty years of dem control.

Sigh, I guess you're going to ask me for a list?

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:18 PM

Where is Dick Cheney when you need him? LMAO I am still ~giggling~ over Babe thinking he is a cutie.

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:28 PM

conservababe,

Amazing that you disagree with me. Sure AARP does have their greedy little hands everywhere, lobbying,and such. But why are they, the old, really so successful at blocking votes and railroading policies? Probably because these "feisty people who won the war" actually vote. What an idea.

But really, your right we should kick out the old. Their "biggest proliferation of social programs ever in the history of our nation" should be exposed and repealed.

How about personal retirement accounts? Or are you counting on that Social Security for your golden years?

I'm 34 so I have a little while. Plus I could be one of those greedy kids, born in the 70's, waiting on his parents to kick the bucket so I receive the table scrapes after the "Death Tax" does a number on my estate.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:32 PM

melange

YOU wouldn't know how to handle a strong man like our Vice President. Leave him to me.

You can have that little prick who shows up as 'Dick Cheney' and signs his posts......

Love Dick

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:33 PM

Librule:

I read your tirade earlier and perhaps I took it incorrectly.I assumed you were talking about me in that post.I agree on many

of your opinions and somewhat agree with the Government screwing up everything they touch.

I did not mean necessarily to indorse "socialized medicine"I just know that there are ways of making health care affordable!That being said,I apologise for my remark concerning"paranoia and dope".

I do not however, advocate abolishing our

Federal Government although taking away much of its power and giving it back to the States would be a wonderful freakn'idea!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:42 PM

fajar

I didn't say the seniors were not deserving of what they paid their hard earned tax dollars for in social programs. I said that they weren't complacent. It's time to grandfather them in and let folks your age have the option to make your own choices for retirement and insurance. Of course, Bill Clinton told us that folks were too stupid to plan for their own future and that the government would have to bail them out.

My Mother has been dead for seven years, but no way was her worth more than the allotment of $600,000 for death taxes. But, I, nonetheless do not approve of taxing dead people on their assets because they died.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:47 PM

babe, babe, babe, If I'm going to dream ...Gimme' Brad Pitt's body or bootie! George Clooney's sense of humor, Val Kilmer's brains, and Johnny Depp's quirky style. Now, if you could package those all together...oh my what a nice Christmas I would have!

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:48 PM

PUPS

I'll answer your question. The republicans didn't do anything to correct the Dems problems because they were too afraid of being called heartless and haters of the poor. Again, politicians of both parties make decisions based on votes for their next re-election, not what is best for the country. Had they not rolled over to the Dems and let them run off Newt, things would have been a lot different, for though many did not like Newt or agree with his views, he was one of the few in congress that was actually a leader. Won't find many, if any of those left in Washington.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:52 PM

Grey

Just curious. If our federal government did give us back states rights and only assumed their role as the Constitution reads....what state would you live in?

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:53 PM

GREYWOLF

No need to apologize. Just having fun. Agree that healthcare can be made affordable, just don't have the confidence that the government can be the one to do it.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 2:56 PM

I kept trying NOT to respond, because I get too "wordy"...

...but had to make one short comment on Librule saying "Again, politicians of both parties make decisions based on votes for their next re-election, not what is best for the country." AMEN!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:01 PM

melange

I'll bet every man you mentioned is a liberal. Try a Conservative man, dear. Only they appreciate a woman that is a chairwoman in the board room, a cook in the kitchen and a ***** in the bedroom. And Conservative men treat women as ladies, you know. Don't you just love how Dubya tucks his hand into the small of his wife's back to guide her through the crowd? That is the sign of a real MAN vs Bill Clinton slinging Hillary around the dance floor like she is a sack of potatoes.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:09 PM

Oh, okay, one more...Greywolf's comments about taking away much of the Federal Government's power and giving it back to the States: seem to recall that was the original intent of our founders. What happened?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:12 PM

Ok you ladies win, I quit, I'll be back tommorrow when Dick Chaney and Brad Pitt's body parts are not part of the discussion.

-- Posted by Donnie on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:14 PM

PS

I still think the government is too big.

-- Posted by Donnie on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:15 PM

gurusmom

What happened? Why, we lost the War of Northern Agression and ole Abe Lincoln took it all away in the name of UNION.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:17 PM

Babe,

Knowing well that ANY Government, State or Federal, will screw things up and be filled with greed and corruption!That being said,

I would stay right here in Missouri.Why?Because Missouri has less restrictions on its gun laws.It has a great conservation department and infrastructure.It also has

the largest river on its eastern border and

3 major interstates running through in each direction.There are more but these come to mind.This is not to mention a very strong work force with good work ethics.

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:18 PM

Babe,

Wouldn't ask you for a list on that one. I am actually old enough to remember Newt. And how he stood up for family values. The whole time having a mistress, but hey he's a polititian. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:19 PM

Donnie, Sorry Donnie was my fault I started it. Was just trying to have a little FUN! Personally, I enjoy fun to name calling. Hope you are having a good day!

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:21 PM

LOL--as long as Johnny Depp is dressed as Captain Jack and I have duct tape in case the talk turns serious---

then it wouldn't matter at all.

*grinz and winkz*

Aside from that---gimmie the guys with mohawks, piercings, and tattoos!!

Brad's too pretty for my taste...but I hope you enjoy, Melange. =)

-- Posted by SuperBethie21 on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:23 PM

Pups

Yes, that old Newt had clay feet alright. But, I don't recall him ever lying to a grand jury about his sexual affairs.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:25 PM

Geez ladies, thanks for talking up us guys with the rapidly receding hairlines and expanding waistlines. Ugly guys need loving too. Good thing my wife is half blind, or I'd be living alone. Reminds me, need to call and cancel her next eye doctor appointment.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:32 PM

Grey

That is exactly why I would be back in Louisiana. Hey, at least there, we have bumper stickers that read 'vote for the crook'. LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:33 PM

Ok babe,

I will miss you when your gone. :-)

Librule,

So if both parties do what they do to get elected (imagine that in a democracy, elections!!), why are only Dems blamed for all the evils. Republicans obviously had a hand in it as well. Though you might admit that, some diehards on here never will. Hell, Babe can't get over Lincoln. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:34 PM

Librule and Babe,

Great posts!Iam still laughing.

Way to lighten things up a bit.

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:36 PM

Hey Babe,

Does your husband know about your crush on the VP?? haha. Just havin a lil ole fun wit cha.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:41 PM

PUPS

If you haven't heard any blame for the Republicans, try NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times, CNN, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, or even the St. Louis Socialist Dispatch. Oops, I meant the Post Dispatch. Even Bill O'Reilly dogs the Republicans on a regular basis when they deserve it(Which is often these past few years).

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:49 PM

Lib,

Didn't say the national media didn't put blame on the Reps. I said the die hards in here never would.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:55 PM

This Portland ice storm video hints how lucky we are the ice storm went north of here. It also reminds me a bit of a pin ball game. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyfjZlOSq...

-- Posted by coke zero on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 3:57 PM

PUPS

I stand corrected, and you are right on that point.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 4:01 PM

Babe,

Why was the President even brought to the Grand Jury for an affair??????? Do you care if he cheated on Hilary????? Seriously, there are more important things involved with the job, then who the President is 'snicker doodleing'.

Do I care that Babe and the VP have a thing for each other?? Nope. LMAO

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 4:36 PM

actually was just seeing if the site was still up. Everyone stopped posting at the same time, thought maybe I was lost. lol

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 4:37 PM

PUPS

I was looking for melange to come to my defense on my ugly guy post with something along the lines of "No, no librule, you're a super hot looking stud that puts Brad Pitt to shame" and when I never saw it, I too thought the site must be down. But alas, melange's silence has let me know that the truth hurts. LOL

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:00 PM

Pups

It was not of an affair, actually, but a matter of national security involving a talk with a foreign leader of a nation....while being involved with a cigar...haruump... off the oval office.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:05 PM

librule

If you have the GRAVITAS of Dick Cheney then you are a stud. I am laughing so hard.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:11 PM

Re: ice storm

Its only weather...and since I have no control over what it does, I don't worry about it. I've never seen weather that was bad enough to keep me from doing what I needed to do.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:15 PM

Librule,

LMAO, she'll have some splainin to do friday at lunch.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:19 PM

The CEO of any corporation would have been fired for having sexual relations with an intern at the company. Heck, in just the past couple weeks there was a story about two congressional pages who were caught having oral sex in an elevator and THEY were fired and sent home. Why is it that there are some who hold Clinton to a lower standard than anyone else?

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:20 PM

dixietrucker,

But you are a safe and sane driver. You and Aggie both seem to be aware of your abilities as drivers. Some in cars don't seem to understand what you guys do.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:22 PM

dixietrucker,

And a CFO would be fired for costing my company trillions of dollars on false information. Even if everyone got the same info he did, before finding out it was false. What's your point?

Mmmmm I think Vitter still has his job. Craig still has his job... so your 'moral' judgement only applies to Clinton????

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:28 PM

dangit...they really ought to switch the order of these posts around....by the time I scroll down here to type a response to something, I've forgotten what it was I wanted to say.

oh well...must not have been too important...

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:30 PM

Dixietrucker,

Glad I'm not the only one that gets lost on what I was going to say.

If you have to go out on the road this week, be careful and hope you make it home safely.

Off to get some work done. Have a great night everyone.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:37 PM

Oh Pups, what am I to do with you...

It did not start with "that woman" with the cigar, but with Paula Jones. Follow it up at your leisure, but he lied to a grand jury and he was impeached by the house. There is no exoneration in impeachment, as it is it a done deed. William Jefferson Clinton will always have the honor in history as being the second president in US history to be impeached.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:39 PM

I fail to see where the actions of a representative or a senator in their private life with another consenting adult in any way compares to the actions of a president in the oval office with a white house intern.

In one case, they are consenting adults who do not work together, who have no power over the other's employment or employability, and who met no less randomly than they would have at a local singles bar doing the whole "dating scene" thing.

In the other case, you have a person in a position of power, who may or may not have been taking advantage of that power when forming a relationship with an intern in the office.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 5:41 PM

Again, a Republican Senate did not impeach, therefor he stayed in office. Mute point on the impeachment if he finished out his term.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 6:36 PM

And if we are going to get technical, his impeachment procedings was for lieing to the grand jury, not having sex with an intern. If in fact the intern was not a consenting adult, why was there not a suit brought by Monical for sexual harrassment?? Or did I miss that trial?

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 6:40 PM

Pups

I don't think you will really miss me. Only the House can impeach and once it is done, it is done, and he will have this inscribed after his name in history. Good lord man, did you even realize Clinton was stripped of his law license?

The Senate cannot impeach but they did not vote him out of office. All in all, it was an interesting time.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 6:46 PM

A quote from Monica L., "This was a mutual relationship, mutual on all levels, right from the way it started and all the way through." Therefore concenting adult without fear of job.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 6:48 PM

Pups

Quit drooling of Monica and take your civics lesson.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 6:51 PM

Babe,

Didn't realize you need a law license to be President. LOL

I will miss you, because we both pick on each other. It's all in fun. I can't change history but I can have fun with it. Can't say I have given you anything to think about, but can say you have given me things to think about.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 6:52 PM

Pups

Yeah, yeah... I eat your lunch. Don't you have anything better than PB&J sandwiches in your PacMan box? LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 6:55 PM

Babe,

You need to learn the meaning of equited and suspended. Not guilty and not lost comes to mind.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 7:01 PM

Babe,

Sorry to ruin the image, but this geek was never good at pacman, so don't have the lunch box. LOL And I only have work to do at the moment. lol

If not PB&J, what would you prefer??

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 7:08 PM

lol...pac man....brings back memories. If nothing is on TV tonight, maybe I'll fire up the old 2600 and play a few games.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 7:14 PM

Pups

Are your definitions of impeachment process derived from 'Scottish' law? LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 7:33 PM

Babe,

Actually need to leave the office for a bit. As always a pleasure. No really. lol

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 7:48 PM

I'm hoping to hear from some of yall on FreeRepublic. We have a very nice internal mail system. One can reply to anyone that posts by hitting 'private reply' or look up a name in search to send mail. JimRob does request that you register, of course, and he does check ip addresses to insure banned members do not return.

My name is Conservababe there, too.

-- Posted by conservababe on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 8:43 PM

See Babe, you do get me to think. I looked up your Scottish Law reference. And actually based on what I found it was Republican Senator Spector that invoked the Scottish Law priciple when it came to the President Clinton issue in the Senate.

It says alot about the whole process when a leading Republican didn't even think there was enough evidence to remove Clinton from office.

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:41 PM

On that note, gonne head out for the night. Talk to you all tomorrow.

Babe, hope you decide to do both. Wouldn't not have been as much fun for me tonight in here if you hadn't been here. :-)

When would be you last day with us, if you decide to only do the FreeRepublic?

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 9:43 PM

dixietrucker: "...a person in a position of power, who may or may not have been taking advantage of that power when forming a relationship with an intern in the office." And besides that, doing it in OUR office, on OUR time.

And yep...the trend was set many years ago, causing Hillary's I-am-not-a-Tammy-Wynette-type-to-stand-by-my-man comment, while she was denying he was a womanizer. Wish all the web sites were still up that we could find when Bill was first running for pres, as well as the second campaign--The ones with his biography, & later with all the comments from their friends & co-workers & campaign workers. Those disappeared really fast, though.

Agree, this would work much better if the new postings could be put on the bottom. Want me to go show them how to do it? LOL

-- Posted by gurusmom on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:02 PM

et too Gurusmom???? LMAO Still want my hugs. lol

-- Posted by Pups on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 11:48 PM


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