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Speak Out 12/6/07

Thursday, December 6, 2007

Our anti-Americanism

In response to "Anti-Americanism": The shame is that you are correct. An alarming number of Americans actually are anti-American in their protests and their utter disregard for the Founders and our beginnings as a Christian nation. Do you honestly think it is patriotic to berate our president because we disagree? Is it patriotic the way our Vietnam veterans were treated when they came home? The freedom to speak is great, but sometimes it is more prudent to be quiet and support the people that lead this country. Try praying for them to make good decisions. If you're not the president, you don't have all the information, despite what the media feeds you. Anti-Americanism? You bet it is.

Left Without Morals

In response to "Stop this nonsense": While you babble about the Religious Right censoring speech, why don't you mention the Left Without Morals and its censoring of the church and trying to pass a law that would jail preachers for quoting Scripture against homosexuality. How about the mind-boggling attempt at taking Christ out of Christmas?

Voting for dictators

Democratic elections in various countries seem to confirm what many (even those in high U.S. office) seem to have overlooked: Democracy is a process, not an end in itself. Witness the eventual fate of Germany's Weimar Republic in the late 1920s and contemporary Venezuela. While we're on the subject, allow me to be among the first to congratulate what may be the first democratically elected one in history: Czar Vladimir Putin I of Russia.

Farm subsidies

If anything reinforces the view expressed in Ecclesiastes that there's nothing new under the sun, it's the more it changes, the more it remains the same farm subsidy program.

Making Huey blush

I wish you would refrain from using euphemisms in your editorial like using the word "overkill" to refer to Gov. Matt Blunt's crusade against illegal immigrants, obviously intended to try to revive his seemingly dead-on-arrival attempt at a second term as Missouri's governor. Rather than overkill, I think you should have described the governor's efforts (from the viewpoint of Blunt critics) as unprecedented demagoguery that would make the likes of Huey Long blush.

Safety-net subsidies

Farm subsidies are a complicated issue invented by Congress. Ninety percent of the farm bill does not go to farmers. American consumers are the real recipients of the agriculture subsidies. With today's high grain prices, there is no reason for agriculture subsidies, because the market is paying for producers to grow all of the wheat and corn they can produce. But these high prices will not last, and when the price of wheat goes back to 5 cents a pound, it is in the best interest of consumers to keep most of the farmers in business. Congress should change the farm bill to only provide a safety net when it is really needed and let the free market run most of the time. Please remember that it is in the best interest of America to encourage conservation, erosion control and a safe supply of American food.

Credits go to Big Oil

You can look it up on the Chicago Board of Trade: January ethanol is selling for $1.84 a gallon. When you buy gasoline with 10 percent ethanol for $2.90 a gallon in Cape Girardeau, the oil companies are getting the subsidy. And the oil companies get the blenders' tax credit. Yes, there is some transportation cost, and every business needs some markup, but the big subsidies are going with the tax credits to the oil companies.


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Re: Anti-Americanism

Our country was not founded as a "Christian Nation". It WAS, on the other hand, founded by men who understood that we as people ought to be free to worship whichever god we choose to, in whatever manner we choose to, without fear that the government will arrest us for our individual beliefs. Many of the founding fathers were Deists....believing that there is a God...but not necessarily the belief that Jesus was anything more than a man (which goes against the Christian belief of Jesus being the son of God). For example, a person seeking to establish a Christian nation would not have penned "...the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God..." or "...endowed by their Creator..." in the Declaration of Independence.

Notice, it refers to "Nature's God", and "their Creator" with no mention of any specific deity....just that there is a higher power than the government they were seeking to establish....a power which has given Rights to the people which no government should be able to take away.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 7:43 AM

Re: Left without morals

I would imagine any laws that seek to arrest a preacher for teaching a religious belief based upon a well established text (i.e. the Bible) would fail to meet the Constitutional standards that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," as such a law would expressly prohibit the free exercise of any religion that preaches against sexual immorality.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 7:49 AM

Re: Voting for dictators

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 7:50 AM

Re: Making Huey blush

I think it's great that Gov. Blunt is stepping up to enforce the law. As the chief executive in the state, he is the top dog of law enforcement within the state, and cracking down on illegals in the state is a good start. I hope Bush & Co. are taking notes....they might learn a thing or two about what needs to be done.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 7:54 AM

dt

thanks for your explanation of Deism and its influence on our country's history. very accurate description.

if only we could return to an Age of Reason...

-- Posted by FriendO on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:06 AM

Does anyone know if there's an update on the Nathan Cooper incident? Seems like they're taking it very lightly. Haven't heard anything else about it lately.

-- Posted by pm98 on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:18 AM

"Our anti-Americanism"

Spoken like a true NeoCon. The words "under God" invalidate your argument, and the fact that jesus isn't mentioned once, backs that up. "God" is many things to many people. Our Constitution gives us the right to air grievances with our government in an effort to bring about change.

I've been to many meetings locally where the soup de'jour is damage control for a presidency gone berserk. President Bush in an incompetent fool. His continued war hawking against Iran is proof enough that he has learned nothing from Iraq.

dixietrucker is on fire today! Keep up the great posts!

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:24 AM

PM98:

He's lost his law license, and had to return the 50K he made off the illegal activities.

His sentencing was supposed to be on Nov 21st, but got pushed back to Dec 10th.

I'm sure the paper will post the results at that time.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:28 AM

I just figured Speak-Out needed a kick in the butt today to get going....

...that and I was bored and had nothing better to do. ;)

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:32 AM

Very good comments, but just wait - it's coming - the smack-down! You know what I'm talking about!

-- Posted by justforfun on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:36 AM

justforfun:

I fully anticipate the the Fox "News" crowd will be checking in shortly. To satisfy their belief that I am "unamerican", I went to Wal-mart last night and had my patriotism system flushed and refilled to the manufactures standard.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:39 AM

justforfun, What are your thoughts regarding the information (or lack of) that has been provided to the public regarding the Cape school board's recent decisions?

-- Posted by coke zero on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:42 AM

FWIW, I watch Fox News...except for Glenn Beck on HNN...and Nascar...my TV pretty much stays on Fox News. Heck, if it wasn't for the debates, MSNBC, CNN, etc... would still be blocked on my Dish.

-- Posted by dixietrucker on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:45 AM

Anti-Americanism:

Read your history books. 1930's Germany had such an obedient class. Society works so well when everyone keeps their mouths shut, follows the lead, never questions authority or disappears when they do.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:51 AM

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, ORIGINAL CHIEF-JUSTICE U.S. SUPREME COURT

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Quincy Adams

A page of history is worth a volume of logic. History shows the intent and purpose of our founding fathers. Contemporary logic is wrong whenever it contradicts the clear explanations of those men who wrote the Constitution.Perhaps this will add to the on going debate!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:15 AM

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, ORIGINAL CHIEF-JUSTICE U.S. SUPREME COURT

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Quincy Adams

A page of history is worth a volume of logic. History shows the intent and purpose of our founding fathers. Contemporary logic is wrong whenever it contradicts the clear explanations of those men who wrote the Constitution.Perhaps this will add to the on going debate!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:31 AM

GREYWOLF:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - Treaty of Tripoli (Approved by the US Senate & signed by John Adams in 1797)

Also Thomas Jeffersons letter to the Danbury Baptists is a good document for insight into the founders religious views.

There is a major difference in George Washington, John Adams & Benjamin Franklin's viewpoints on religion if you read their personal writings rather than their works that are meant to be distributed to the wider audience. Thus giving both sides of the debate plenty of great quotes to use depending on which side they wish to prove.

My guess is much like many contemporary politicians they wore religion on their sleeves to gain public support but were not all that religious themselves.

-- Posted by Nil on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:50 AM

melange

See, you should have taken to the streets and stormed the offices to demand answers when the story first broke.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:12 AM

GREYWOLF:

Don't confuse the interpretation of the forefathers, with the actual text of the Constitution.

You're making the same dangerous argument that people who want to strike down the 2nd amendment and restrict gun owner rights make.

"The forefathers couldn't have anticipated assault weapons"

No, but they had the foresight to know that citizens should have access to the same weapons that our military has for use in the common defense.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:19 AM

Yes Nil,

Isn't it ironic that many poiticians from yesteryears as well as current find it necessary to invoke Religion or Faith to gain public support!My double post(so sorry)

was indeed only meant to stir debate and not necessarily my opinion!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:34 AM

spider

In my opinion:

So, what is your argument? The founding fathers had the intent that translated in their writing of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. You just gave the example of their intent on the freedom of owning firearms. Their intent of religious freedom is also intertwined with their belief that our inalienable rights come from our Creator.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:16 AM

conservababe:

The point being that jesus was around when they wrote the constitution, so if it was their intent to make us a "christian nation", it would have been easy to include his name if that was truly their intent... which is wasn't ... or they would have done so.

Again, you confuse what is in the written text, which what people interpret from it.

Much like people who literally believe every word in the bible (rather than recognize that it was meant to be an allegory), you have totally missed the point of the message.

The forefathers had the wisdom to leave the interpretation ambiguous to include people of all belief systems. This is further backed by the words of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:25 AM

Tarantulas,

Confused by the comment " No, but they had the foresight to know that citizens should have access to the same weapons that our military has for use in the common defense."

Do you really want indviduals to have the same access to weapons as the military? That would be kind of scary.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:29 AM

short white bald guy

What's even scarier is that when the next big natural disaster happens, President Hillary decalares martial law and takes a page out of New Orleans Mayor Ray Naggin's book and orders the military to go door to door and confiscate all the guns from private citizens and we have nothing but pistols, rifles, and shotguns to defend our property agsinst the military's M-16's.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:41 AM

spider

Yes, and the founding fathers did a good job of it, don't you think? They said that our inalienable "rights" came from our Creator. Whether you want to believe it comes from a higher power other than God is no matter to me, really. And yes, the government cannot establish a religion, but they sure as hell have persecuted Christians. Madam O'Hare coined the words 'separation of church and state' which is never to be found in the Constitution.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:47 AM

short bald guy

Yes, indeed, we have the right to be armed and even to fight our own military if necessary. Scary, yes. It is a heavy burden to carry, these 'rights' of US citizens.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:54 AM

short white bald guy:

Were the citizens of our nation be called to repel a threat to our sovereignty (foreign or domestic) it would require firearms and munitions on grade with those that we would be facing from the apposing force.

By saying this scenario is "scary", you call into question the integrity of responsible gun owners.

Not everyone that owns a gun is a "gun nut".

It is my opinion that owning a AR15 or AK47 adds more strength to our national security than a dozen military bases in Iraq.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:54 AM

conservababe:

Ambiguity is likely the founding fathers greatest gift to us as a nation :)

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:58 AM

spider

No. Our founding fathers were not ambiguous, but absolute. Tis a shame that others want to consider the Constitution a living document to be interpeted by agenda driven courts.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:05 PM

So my question is How do you define a "responsible gun owner?" What does that mean. Should convicted felones be allowed to have guns? The irrisponsible people...as is usually the case...can cause a great deal of disruption for the responsible. The guy in Jackson that shot his whole family...was he a responsible gun owner prior to committing this horrible act? And no I am not suggesting that guns kill people.

To suggest that the average citizen be able to arm themselves in the manner of the military is ridiculous. If someone can afford an F-15 should they be allowed to purchase and arm one? You can carry this argument to no end. Arms does not merely mean guns. Should average citizens be allowed to have grenades. Those too are arms and would be beneficial should we be over run by an foreign invader. If you are suggesting there should be no gun control laws at all that is what scares me.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:24 PM

Romney, seeking to become the first Mormon president, explained how his faith would affect his presidency in his speech at former President George H. W. Bush's presidential library at Texas A&M University.

"There are some who may feel that religion is not a matter to be seriously considered in the context of the weighty threats that face us. If so, they are at odds with the nation's founders," Romney said.

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:32 PM

short bald guy

Perhaps the mother in Jackson should have been armed to protect herself and her children instead of depending on restraining orders or shelters.

An armed society is a polite society.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:38 PM

RE: Our anti-Americanism

You call our country a Christian nation. What happened to separation of church and state? This country is about FREEDOM. The freedom to speak, have a different religion, be of a different race, etc.

It's a free country, so I won't be prudent and I will speak up!

-- Posted by foodie on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:44 PM

conservababe "Madam O'Hare coined the words 'separation of church and state' which is never to be found in the Constitution."

That is blatantly incorrect. Madalyn O'Hare was born about 150 year to late to coin the phrase.

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." - Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists

Also James Madison discussed separation of church and state many times

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" - Madisons Detached Memoranda

&

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Madisons Letter to Robert Walsh dated Mar. 2, 1819

Separation of Church and State goes way back... oddly enough the Baptists back then loved the concept (since there are many letters to Baptists associations that seem to mention it). I didn't quote the letters Madison wrote to Rev. Jasper Adams nor the one to the Black Creek, North Carolina Baptists though both are good reading as well. I guess it's the difference between being a tiny fringe religious group and being one with the political power to dictate exactly what religion the government should kowtow to.

-- Posted by Nil on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:56 PM

short white bald guy

Firat off the US has more gun control laws than any other nation on the planet. I don't think anyone is suggesting no gun control laws. Even the "Evil Gun Nut NRA" believes in rational gun control laws, such as felons and the mentally ill not allowed to own guns, severe and swift penalties for those that commit crimes with a gun, no ownership of fully automatic weapons by private citizens etc, etc.

How do you define a responsible gun owner? A responsible gun owner is a law abiding citizen with no felonies or mental illness who respects firearms and learns to use them in a safe and responsible manner.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 1:21 PM

Nil

All of your sources are speaking of separation of church in state in the context of establishing a religion and not in the denial of practicing or showing religious symbols in public. Madam O'Hara was the first to use the phrase 'separation of church and state' to mean a complete obliteration of religion from public because she objected. She used the phrase so cleverly that many believe that it is actually in the Constitution.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 1:31 PM

hilleco

Are you stirring the pot or putting on war paint today?

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 1:33 PM

Librule,

Exactly. Most people believe in rational gun control laws. However what is rational to one is not rational to another.

-- Posted by SWBG on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 1:34 PM

librule

Sooooo, you are comfortable with RESPONSIBLE people owning guns? And you went on to define RESPONSIBLE people who are ALLOWED to own arms by their government entities. No, no, no....you are wimping out just like George H Bush and Charles Heston. I believe that any household in the USA should be required to own a firearm in good repair just as is the law in Kennesaw, Ga. If anyone should have to traipse down to the beaurcrats it should be those asking a waivor because of pacifism, mental illness or perhaps because a husband fears his wife will shoot his *** off if he threatens her.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 1:52 PM

conservababe:

The ambiguity stems from the room for interpretation. I wasn't saying something silly like "we may or may not believe that you have the right to a fair trail, like you know, if you have time or something".

In response to the Romney post you made...

Mit was unable to answer at the recent CNN debate if he literally believes the bible. He danced all around the issue without giving a clear answer, even after the moderator explained what the question meant. He frittered away his 30 seconds without stating his position because he knew that if he stated his real beliefs that he would be a laughing stock. Christians you should considering this heavily when making their decision on Feb 5th. Add to the top of the pile that he is a the progeny of polygamy and believes that Joesph Smith is equal to the God of Abraham in terms of their faith, and christians should realize that he isn't a christian at all.

I have many LDS friends, and it is represented as a very caring and wholesome faith, but remember, these people think their underwear is magical... so be critical in your analysis.

"An armed society is a polite society." Heh.. too true :)

short white bald guy:

In my mind, responsible gun owner means someone who understands and practices gun safety. You can commit a crime using a firearm and still have been a responsible gun owner in the past. I would say that all responsible people who purchase firearms for self defense do so hoping to never have to use them. Don't lump all gun owners in the same category as the loons that many on the left cart out every time they want to scare the American public into giving up their Constitutional rights.

Nil:

You are right.. American Baptists were scared out of their minds that they would be wiped out by those around them who thought they were a dangerous cult.

librule:

Well put... well put.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 1:54 PM

Wow, Nil...good guess! "My guess is much like many contemporary politicians they wore religion on their sleeves to gain public support but were not all that religious themselves." We might include, off-the-subject, that guess of yours is pretty much true of many subjects.

IMHO, the same might be said for just about everything else our politicians, Democrat or Republican, appear to be "for" or "against."

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:05 PM

RE: hilleco

Anyone (who is a legal resident) is allowed to be in this country, love this country, and fight for the rights that our original founding fathers established.

That does not include anything about anyone's God.

So in short...I agree with you.

-- Posted by foodie on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:14 PM

Hilleco, you wrote: "... When you call this a Christian Nation, that implies that those of us who are not Christian do not belong here..." No, it most certainly DOES NOT imply that!! You need a course in logic, that is in error. It implies, or rather means, that Christians came here and FOUNDED this nation because they wanted a nation that would not persecute anyone for their religion, as they had been persecuted for their religion in Europe.

HOWEVER, they wanted a nation "Under God" and founded on Christian principles. So that's what they did. Since that day, any person of any religion can live here and worship freely. That doesn't mean take God out of the Constitution, schools, money, buildings, etc.

There is a difference between being persecuted (fear of death) for your religion (or lack thereof), and having to see the words God, Jesus, Christ, and Christmas written and spoken publicly. So you see it, so you hear it, SO WHAT? It doesn't hurt you!! What does that nut doctor in California and the ACLU want, for us to re-write the Declaration of Independence so it is "politically correct"? This county is fast becoming socialist, as we're told what to say, print, speak, and to hide our religion, lest it "upset" someone.

-- Posted by teachergloria on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:14 PM

spider

grrrr...I have housework to do today...and here I am answering you. LOL

Anyway, the Constitution is absolute, but the courts have taken liberties with their interpetation. Hell, congress just punts laws to the courts and washes their hand of the mess they have made. Who knew that a 'privacy' issue would lead to legalized abortion or that the 'general welfare' clause would be so corrupted by them.

But, if you are saying that the peoples can interpet the founding fathers intent in any way they like, then it is fine with me.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:16 PM

gurusmom:

The surest sign for how a candidate is going to perform is their past voting record and who they take political donations from and who they buddy around with.

If you're Rudolph Giuliani, you do business with the man who hid the "mastermind" of 9/11, you also give your childhood friend (who happens to be a pedophile priest) a kooshy job at your consulting firm you made to profit off the tragedy of 9/11.

That just one example..

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:18 PM

teachergloria says: "What does that nut doctor in California and the ACLU want, for us to re-write the Declaration of Independence so it is "politically correct"? This county is fast becoming socialist, as we're told what to say, print, speak, and to hide our religion, lest it "upset" someone."

Yep, pretty much...

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:25 PM

spider

And who is this mastermind of 9/11 that was hidden? Source please?

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:26 PM

NO, NO, NO, Conservababe! Please don't get the "9/11" conspiracy rants started again! ;)

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:28 PM

gurusmom

I am laughing so hard. Sorry, spider pulled something out of his arse and now he is asked to PROVE it.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:32 PM

Didn't see anything in today's paper regarding state legislators trying to do something to correct House Speaker Rod Jetton's last-minute bill addition making it easier for property owners to become "village" owners. Was on the news last evening. Sorry, forgot the Bill No.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:44 PM

conservababe:

It's no conspiracy, it's a fact that Rudy does/did business with Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifah al-Thani. A member of al-Thani's royal family sheltered and aided Khalid Sheikh Muhammad in escaping capture. Ever hear of Khalid Sheikh Muhammad? The CIA calls him KSM.. the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.

Granted, these middle eastern families are large, but it's something people should be aware of. Much in the same way that the Bin Laden family bailed GWB out of his Arbusto oil debt.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:53 PM

conservababe (May I call you Babe?): I just HAD to look up Kennesaw, GA mandatory gun laws! That's astounding!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:03 PM

spider

If it is a fact, then you must have a proven source, no?

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:04 PM

conservababe:

Feel free to pump both their surnames names into google, and select any of the 21,000+ links. Put both of their full names in and get 35,000+

Since you're going to attempt to cherry pick what you find "credible", a high percentage of those are from non "tinfoil hat wearing" web pages.

Off the web, Larry King had both Rudy and the Shiek on post 9/11 to get their stories straight. The whole thing seems fishy to me.

Outside his connection to the people who bankrolled 9/11, he used public funds to pay for an affair, which included walking the womans dog.

Plenty of reasons to hate Rudy... the fact that I could take a dump on the sidewalk and write September 11th 2001 under it and Rudy would stand on it in another effort to profit from being connected to 9/11 is reason enough to send him and his corrupt cronies back to hell.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:22 PM

gurusmom

Yes, it is astounding and no court could over rule them. Just think of our timid city council trying to introduce this for a vote.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:23 PM

hilleco:

Join the fight to end the socialism that is going to crush our country. We need a return to Constitutional government now more than ever.

We need to end the thinking that the government is somehow responsible to take care of you from cradle to grave, and end the welfare and entitlements that are crushing the middle class tax payer.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:24 PM

spider

No thanks, I won't do your homework. Either source it or I will think you pulled it out of your arse.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:26 PM

spider

Welfare is no longer an entitlement. You can thank a repubican for that if you wish.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:30 PM

Hilleco:

If you truely are a descendant of our Native American Brothers then you must realize that the tribes(many of which do not exist today)

fought each other viciously!!This is well known among historians and the "people"!

They all were very warring and fought to the death!Not sure of your ancestoral tribe but no doubt they were at battle on a regular basis with other tribes.Do you agree?My history tells me that the "people" were not peaceful.I am however respectful of your beliefs and your Native American ancestors.

I say again!There will always be wars.Humans were given "free will and choice"by our creator!This is why we are not and never will be at peace on this planet!That is the reality of things as I see them.

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:31 PM

conservababe:

I wont teach you how to use google. If you're too lazy to figure it out, I'm going to request that you blow it out your arse.

Wow.. to just be able to discount someones point because they didn't come over to your house and do a powerpoint.

I reiterate my insult to you from yesterday.

You are willingly ignorant, which is why your arguments fail.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:31 PM

GREYWOLF:

But by your logic, couldn't people just as easily choose peace?

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:32 PM

spider

I am laughing so hard. You aren't used to getting your lunch eaten, are you, deah?

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:36 PM

Yes Taranrulas by God I agree with you here!

we could,but as always we humans are too competitive by nature and always want more then we have!Thats why I feel the world we live in is a dangerous place.I will say this,

The United States is not to blame for this!

As a NATION we are the most generous on the planet and we react to oppression with swift and certain resolve!This is where you and I have issues but remember we each have our opinions and debate is healthy.

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:39 PM

Sorry Hilleco,

I miss understood a post!Thats not surprising though for me.I apologise.

My bad!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:43 PM

conservababe:

Lucky for me I packed a poo sandwich today.

I pointed you to where you can get more info about what I was talking about. Your inability or unwillingness to take what I gave you and read about it in no way reflects negatively on what I'm speaking about.

Serious, get a clue, or get off my internet.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:56 PM

GREYWOLF:

Indeed, man's greed will be the architect of his destruction.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 3:59 PM

Tarantulas - I've found that I'm much happier not wasting my time by responding. She does the same thing to everybody - just spouts - I think it's how she gets her jollies.

-- Posted by justforfun on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:01 PM

spider

This is not YOUR internet, deah. I asked you to source your 'facts' because you told me that McVeigh's arab friend was something I pulled out of my arse. I could have told you to google, too, (actually I prefer google news or dogpile, myself) but instead I asked you to provide your source. And you have declined to do so.

NMPR

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:15 PM

Babe,

Don't want to get in the middle of you and Spidey, but what does NMPR stand for. Or is this something that can't be said on here in polite company?? Cause I know it doen't stand for "bless your heart". LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:27 PM

doen't = doesn't,,, sorry

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:30 PM

Gotta say Pups, days like today are why I come here. Here call me a Zionist and I'll rant about the secret government that is REALLY controlling things.

-- Posted by Donnie on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:37 PM

Aw, PUPS...you have me LOL again...family will have me committed if you keep this up!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:44 PM

Tarantulas,

Crazy that I actually agree with you today. Missed the fun yesterday though

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:46 PM

Tarantula,

The plans have already been drawn

and the project and the dirt work

have begun!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:50 PM

Donnie,

Has MJB/Nick Charles returned? Throwing out the Zionist rant once again. How....confusing. Still to this day I would love to hear from someone why being FOR the Jewish State is a bad thing. Because that is what a Zionist is. NOT some secret world dominating power movement. It's as much a movement as my bowels. Bad visual, but necessary at times.

Plus it's been a while since I was called a racist for my ILLEGAL aliens comments. I would love see how MJB would talk his way through how Jews are bad and try to make it PC. A little tit for tat.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:51 PM

Pups

You still don't know the southern meaning of 'bless your heart'.

NMPR means 'no more personal reponses' and has been around since spidey's internet began. LOL It literally means that I will not personally respond for a while until I cool off.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:53 PM

Conserva:

How is it that someone so ill can muster up the stress it takes to sit and think of put-downs and smart aleck comments in this column as much as you do? And I can't imagine the stress of being absolutely right about absolutely every subject anyone can name. Have you ever tried Qi Gong?

-- Posted by grisgris on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 4:55 PM

Fedup,

I have wondered the same thing. I picture conservbabe slumped over her computer with a cig hanging out of her mouth and a shotgun in one hand shooting down suspicious helicopters flying around her house and scaring away the occasional deer. All the while talking to the glossy 8x10 of Dick Cheney on her desk...the one with hearts drawn all over it.

-- Posted by allen6177 on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 5:03 PM

Tarantulas,

Sorry, didn't check yesterday until a minute ago.

"You are wrong, Iraq is in the middle of a civil war. How do I know? The CIA has published NIEs about it."

Aren't those the same NIEs that are written by staff lifers? Those same guys that have never seen the light of day much less the fog of war. So I should believe the company men. No alterior motives at all.

I do believe that Iraq has had a minor civil war, but it has settled down.

I don't believe what the Central Idiot Agency puts out, that just makes them easy.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 5:05 PM

fedup

Well, I am not ill, persay. My spine has collapsed but my mind is still intact. I am a lucky woman of leisure now. I mostly live in my recliner awaiting my second 'cementing' surgery.

I've been on the internet since before the mouse was introduced, mostly in political forums.

Do you have a problem with handicapped people expressing their opinions?

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 5:24 PM

conservababe:

You could have told me to google it, but instead you just claimed you had a "senior moment" and tried to drop the conversation. I knew who you where speaking about, so I named them AND provided a link where any interested parties could look up more information.

Again, your laziness hardly impacts the points I make negatively.

GREYWOLF:

Too true.. but why not use that free will to stop the people who want to bring about Armageddon? It's in our grasp if we only have the courage to reach out!

fajar154:

Zionism is bad because it's the basis for our foreign policy that sends billions of dollars to Israel allowing them to brutalize that region of the world leading to attacks like the one to took on 9/11... how do I know this? Because the terrorists told us that this is one of the many reasons they they attacked us. It had nothing to do with "hating us for our freedom" or Paris Hilton being a stupid spoiled *****, it was our complacency to Jewish terrorism in the arab peninsula.

Jews's aren't bad people.. but the policy makers of Israel, the citizens who support their police, and the American elite who bankroll them are.

In regards to believing NIE's.... it's hard to talk about without sounding all "truther" about it. Given a certain recently published report and associated investigation that cost less than the investigation probing the Clinton/Lewinsku affair being accepted as god own word, I'll go with the masses and say that the NIEs are real, and to question them makes you a crackpot ;)

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 5:27 PM

Allen: Hilarious!

Con: I mean it about the Qi Gong.

-- Posted by grisgris on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 5:42 PM

Babe,

Sorry but I do know what 'bless your heart' means in Southern Speak, hense the LOL after. I know LOL isn't 'giggles' but I refuse to giggle. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 6:20 PM

Donnie,

I enjoy the debates as well. Not alway able to discuss topic that others are having, but enjoy the read.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 6:27 PM

Oh Gurusmom,

You going to be with us tomorrow? Donnie said he would bring photos of his tour overseas.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 6:34 PM

Tarantulas,

If brutalizing a region, their own backyard, is part of a dictorial presence then Israel has every right to defend it with an iron fist. Protection of one's land isn't it? But you say that their over doing it pushes the issue to make it hard not to push back. So all those rockets lobbed last year were, by your assumption, "They had it coming." Just like when we got hit was because we supported the Zionists. Brilliant.

Now I know where we stand. It's retaliation for the terrorists. Being muslim, christian, jew, zionist, free thinking evangelicals, or even the snake handlers, if they are wronged in some sort of way, then they CAN and WILL retaliate. So the cycle can and will go on.

We **** off some "crackpot" and then its OKEE DOOKEE to blow some of our civilians away.

Happy Holidays, Tarantulas your bucket full of retard mentality is wonderfully accepted as fact.

"Because the terrorists told us that this is one of the many reasons they they attacked us." Cool, so I guess we can take edvice from those who want to kill you.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 7:16 PM

Tarantula, crawl back under your anti-American rock and shut the hell up. You are a left wing liberal nut case and your posts demonstrate this on a daily basis.

-- Posted by workin' them angels on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:15 PM

But, workin', how do you "really" feel about tarantulas? LOL

-- Posted by nuit_de_trois_chiens on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:17 PM

The guy is like MJB without the helicopters circling his house....a nut case, none the less.

-- Posted by workin' them angels on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:47 PM

Babe,

Concidering,"Douglas Engelbart of the Stanford Research Institute invented the mouse in 1963[2][3] after extensive usability testing." I don't think you were online before the mouse was invented. You aren't that old. LOL

Just being a bit of a smart a** cause it got quiet in here. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:58 PM

Working,

If disagreeing with someone on here qualified a person a "nut job", then I guess there are alot of "nut jobs" on here.

LMFAO

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:00 PM

Sorry,

job should be case if I am going to quote correctly.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:01 PM

fajar154:

You missed the entire point of my post. Israel wasn't even a county until until 1948, before that, it existed only as biblical prophesy. The creation of a Jewish home state is one of the first steps toward heralding in "the end times" described in the bible.

The problem with Israel is that the border that was set up with Palestine is constantly being pushed back and greedy Jewish land developers roll back the border to create new housing for Jewish settlers.

The Israeli army constantly breaks the very rules that keep them their borders sovereign. The US sends billions every year, yet never protests their aggressive military stance. This is not an issue of anyone trying to invade Israel, it's an issue of Israel constantly allowing their border to ebb ever outward gobbling up palestinian land.

Israel has 100+ nuclear weapons, no one is going to attack them. So why do we send money, equipment, and manpower to prop up an already wealthy and well defended foreign power? Because evangelical christians believe that in the end times, the Jewish people will reject their faith and accept christ. Sounds crazy right? Check out the organization called Jews for Jesus and you will see that it's pretty much their mission statement.

Also, you misunderstood me that I somehow condoned the actions the terrorists took on 9/11. What I said was that many people are under the delusion that "they hate us for our freedom", when it couldn't be further from the truth. They hate us for interfering the the arab peninsula. How do we know this? Because they have told us so on multiple occasions.

You also said "Cool, so I guess we can take [sic]edvice from those who want to kill you."

You are again wrong. I believe we should take our advice from Thomas Jefferson who adhered to the policy of trade and relations with all, but tangling alliances with none.

Before you fly off the handle again, I suggest you take a long hard look at what the US' foreign policy has been for the last 60+ years and realize that a policy of policing the world has done NOTHING to make America safer or increase it's standing abroad.

workin' them angels:

If you understood the spectrum, you would know that I just right of center. I just don't buy into fascist doctrine that you seem to think is required to be a conservative. I don't blame you though, the NeoCon's have done a bang up job of confusing the American public into thinking that questing your government and it's actions are somehow unamerican.

If you loved you country, you would be asking the very same questions that I am. It's your job as an American citizen to keep your government honest.. it's just sad that folks like yourself seem to think that corruption should be the status quo.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:03 PM

PUPSLOVER:

If I'm a nutjob, so are our founding fathers. All I'm doing is taking a page from their play book.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:11 PM

Spidey,

I wasn't calling you one. Sorry if it came off that way. Was just meaning that alot of us don't always agree, but doesn't make us nut jobs.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:13 PM

workin' them angels:

You just lost your argument by invoking Godwin's Law. Go ahead and look it up...

I don't have to be an advocate for Jews. The Jews are advocates for Jews.

Do I support the Jews having a homeland? Sure... They can do whatever they want.

Do I support the use of US tax payer money to prop up an already wealthy nation so that later it forces us to borrow money from communist China to pay our bills?

NO, and you shouldn't either!

You have confused antisemitism supporting a foreign policy that costs the American tax payer billions every year, and the families of US servicemen and women their loved ones.

What is wrong with pride in America, and wanting to put our needs at home first before all others? Nothing. We have no business policing the world, let alone protecting those who can protect themselves.

The fact the you find humor in my statement about the founding fathers proves that everything you learned about the forefathers was from a place mat at Bob's Big Boy. Do some reading about them.. our first president was bright enough to give us an important piece of advice on foreign policy, too bad more politicians don't follow it.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:27 PM

PUPSLOVER:

I didn't think you were... just commenting on how out of whack several of the posters on here seem to be with the principals this nation was founded on.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:29 PM

Pups

Well, if the mouse was already invented, no one told me. No, I key stroked as did everyone else I knew. The technology of this forum reminds me of the old days. giggle

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:34 PM

Babe,

Do you remember the old comador64's? I'm dating myself, but I sure do. My friends and I thought they were the best thing ever invented when they came out. LMAO

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:41 PM

lemmings

-- Posted by lvsholeflow on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:43 PM

Oh, gosh, PUPS...I was going to try to make it to lunch tomorrow, if the roads aren't still iced over (they are here on my hill now)...

But...it sounds like it may be get a little intense! ;) Oddly enough, I agree with SOME of the points individuals have made here today & yesterday, while disagreeing with other points the same people have made. So, am I just a middle-of-the-road Old Lady? Maybe, but I'm just kind of a peace-loving gal who hates it when people start yelling--which doesn't indicate intelligence or knowlege, just that a person has the ability to be loud. And, like I used to tell my son & friends once in a great while, when I overheard the F-word regarding something (i.e., "Coach made us run up & down the F-ing stairs 50 times"): "I didn't know (insert whatever--like stairs) did that!" In a more-serious conversation, I suggested to them that the need to use that word made it sound like their vocabulary was lacking if they couldn't come up with more appropriate descriptions of things.

Nevertheless, would like to meet some of the others--really enjoyed meeting you & the others last time! I'll sleep on it, & we'll see...And PUPS: thanks so much for thinking of me!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 9:58 PM

It would be more appropriate to refer to Godwin's Law as a theory. A theory and nothing more. To make you feel better, comparing yourself to the Founding Fathers is about like saying Saddam Hussein was an advocate for the Kurds.

George Washington was not the first President of the United States. We operated under the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union until is was replaced by the United States Constitution in 1788. Technically he was not the first President.

When the hell do I bring up anything pertaining to support of Israel? Now, go waste some of your money by contributing to Ron Paul's campaign. The ideas you espouse are right in line with his isolationist/whack job ideas.

The **** guy is so whacked, we thinks we should have never been involved in WWII.

-- Posted by workin' them angels on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:03 PM

gurusmom:

Trust me, no one yells at these lunches. It's actually a pretty enjoyable time, and a great opportunity to discuss the issues of the day and maybe hear a different point of view.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:05 PM

Hey, PUPS, I remember the first computer in the U of I department where I worked: The first few weeks, I found myself dozing off in front of it--something about staring at that screen...! Totally different from the text-editing IBM MagCard machines. How embarrassing. I've overcome that now, however. And yes! First home computer was really a joke, but loved it.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:09 PM

Gurusmom,

Well according to tomorrow's weather report it is supposed to be above freezing all day. So hopefully the ice "on the hill" will be gone by lunch.

And if you can't make it, I'll just have to get you to LOL online. Just have to make sure the family isn't listening. Would hate to be the cause of your commitment. LMAO

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:11 PM

Gurusmom,

The boss likes to keep the old real to real tapes that were used for storeing info at work when the department started. Says its a reminder of how much easier/faster our job is today. LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:15 PM

Thanks, Tarantualas: I've enjoyed this comment board (for lack of better description), and I HAVE learned a lot of things I didn't know...and perhaps have even changed some of my opinions on some things. Does that mean perhaps I have at least a somewhat open mind? Or would that classify me as wishy-washy?

Nope, I think it just means I still have enough brain left to assimilate information and to make what I hope are intelligent decisions when it comes to what I believe. Well, anyway I HOPE I do!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:17 PM

I dunno, PUPS...there have been times when I've pleaded with family to have the "men in the little white coats" come take me away! But they've so far refused. Not sure if they'd miss my LOL times, or my cooking!

-- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:20 PM

Gurusmom,

I'm going to say they would miss both. :-)

Well, time to head home. Everyone have a safe and warm night. Talk with you tomorrow.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:31 PM

gurusmom:

Hear both sides of an issue.. think critically... base on opinion on something more than anecdotal evidence or a "gut feeling".. and don't be afraid to passionately debate your beliefs with others.

Who knows, you might win them over! ;)

I look forward to possibly meeting you tomorrow (as well as the other folks I have not met yet).

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:31 PM

So I got it right about your support for Ron Paul. I could tell by your arguments exactly where you stand and what candidate you support.

The guy is a nut case, pure and simple. He doesn't stand a chance of being elected. Keep on throwing your money down the drain. Isolationism is about as successful as communism.

As far as MY candidate goes, Duncan Hunter makes more sense than any of the other RINOs. Unfortunately, like Dr Paul, he doesn't stand a chance.

-- Posted by workin' them angels on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 10:36 PM

workin' them angels:

You're welcome to "your" opinion of Dr. Paul... too bad it isn't one you came up with on your own.

I'll take all the baseless conjecture that you've made about his chances along with all the rest that NeoCons like yourself have told me in the past, and remember how McCain attacked Paul at the CNN debate... if he wasn't a threat, why even give him the time of day? McCain got boo'd... Dr. Paul's message of peace and prosperity is just too strong!

Ron Paul has raised more money from active duty and retired military personnel than any other Republican candidate and set the all time single day donation record at 4.3 million dollars on November 5th, and is set to out raise even Guiliani and Romney on December 16th... all this without taking a single penny from special interest groups, or the corporations. He's won at least half the straw polls he's been in, and has more unpaid volunteers on the ground and in the streets than all the supposed "front runners" combined. He's the only candidate this election who is for peace at home and abroad and is a true believer in the Constitution as the rule of law.

Yeah... he's got no chance..

"First they ignore you..

then they ridicule you..

then they fight you...

then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

What stage do you think the Paul campaign is on? I can assure you that we're very close to the finish line :)

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 11:24 PM

Thanks for the Ron Paul website link, Tarantulas! So far, he sounds like...well, like an average, intelligent American...Like most of us think, but then when it comes time to vote, we vote the rhetoric, the money, the cutesy personality, the lobbyists...

Well, I don't know yet who I'll vote for (just know the one I absolutely will NOT vote for), or even which party, but I'll read more of the things about Paul, like I've done on some of the other sites.

Problem is: who does one believe? And why don't we make some laws regarding political campaign promises that never come to pass, something that would at least keep them from telling us what they know we want to hear, even when they know it won't or cannot happen. OH! Sorry, we can't do that...The very people who need some laws regarding their employment are the ones who MAKE the laws, right? What was I thinking?

-- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, Dec 7, 2007, at 12:00 AM

gurusmom:

The way to judge a candidate is by their voting record. Ron Paul is a 10 term congressmen has been walking the way line and voting the same way for his 20 years in Congress. He's written numerous books on foreign policy, finance, and social issues. They've (NeoCons) been trying to for 20 years to get him out of Congress. In the past, they've went as far as redistricting to try and make the are he represents predominantly Democrat. But you know what? He keeps winning anyway!

His message is unique in a sea of identical rhetoric. We need to get back to the Constitution as the rule of law, and stop selling our liberty to the highest bidder.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Fri, Dec 7, 2007, at 12:14 AM

Tarantulas,

"Before you fly off the handle again..." Sorry if you took that as flying off the handle. That wasn't. I was trying to push an idea to the forefront of the conversation. You speak of 9-11 as a retaliation to our Arab policy. Which I agree we are NOT the world's police, but I don't see too many solar powered SUVs running around. If it is what it is, payback then it stems back when Israel first became a state. The whole region erupted and tried to take them over. If Israel was a job, then that wasn't a good first day.

Israel has every right to defend themselves. We force them to give lands back to a scumbag group who's very excistance is an annoyance to the region. The same lands that were lost fair and square in the rules of war, you lose, you lose the ground you controlled. The rest of the world wants to hamstring them and treat them like the mean pitbull chained in the backyard.

One of these days that little doggie is going to go berzerk. Thats when you say, "I'm glad they're on our side."

Tarantulas,

This is really gonna suck for my reputation, but I kind of like SOME of Ron Paul's views too.

Plus here's an idea, Hillary for UN Ambassader. Perfect. She's out of our hair and she can rant with all the other wanna-be dictator despots.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Fri, Dec 7, 2007, at 12:19 AM

fajar154:

Except that we need to withdraw from the U.N. :)

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Fri, Dec 7, 2007, at 8:49 AM


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