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Speak Out 12/5/07

Wednesday, December 5, 2007

A fine gentleman

I WAS saddened to hear of the passing of Leonard Lowes. I had the privilege to do business with him since 1979. He was a fine gentleman and one I could trust to deal fairly and honestly. He will be missed.

Mizzou's united fans

IT IS great to see our Missouri football team No. 1 in the nation. I hope someday our own Southeast Missouri State University football team will have a winning championship team like Mizzou, It is like the saying, "United we stand, divided we fall." No doubt about it, Mizzou fans are united.

Fix those lights

IN RESPONSE to the column "Lights out in River City: Call this number. Now!": Joe, you have a way of telling a story like no other. You told the city and Missouri Department of Transportation exactly what they need to do: Get on the stick and fix the lights. You go, Joe.

Those storytellers

I'LL ADMIT it. I was against the DREAM initiative before I read state Sen. Jason Crowell's perceptive piece endorsing it. Frankly, I thought it would be just another wasted pork-barrel project. However, since Crowell wrote that a big part of it will be devoted to presentations by world-class storytellers, I changed my mind and am enthusiastic about it. In fact, I can hardly wait until the time when Cape Girardeau will be graced with the presence of so many politicians.

Water and gasoline

EVER STOP to think about the price of bottled water and the price of gasoline? Figure out which costs more.

Mentos holiday

CONGRATULATIONS TO Southeast Missouri on making the Guinness Book of World Records with its multiple geysers of Mentos. This is a tremendous accomplishment, second perhaps only to the fact Southeast Missourian also launched the career of Rush Limbaugh. Oct. 3 is a memorable day, which city fathers should declare a public holiday in the future.

Too much government

BIG BROTHER says it's time for mandatory reduction of all salt in food and drink.

Low reading scores

IN CASE you missed the article about the fourth-grade reading scores: U.S. students posted a lower average score than students in Russia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Luxembourg, Hungary, Italy and Sweden as well as the Canadian provinces of Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario. It would be interesting to see again where we are on all the combined basic subjects.


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Comments
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Mizzou fans.....

I understand there is some delay in posting comments to speak out but perhaps the paper could use a bit of editorial discretion before posting some messages that are no longer accurate.

-- Posted by Tom_Grey on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:06 AM

Water and gasoline,

Let me think...

Gallon of bottle water from the tap...pennies

Bottle water by the case.... .22 cents for 16 oz equals $ 1.76 a gallon

Gallon of Water at the general store .75 cents

Cooler at Convenience Store 1.00 or more for 16 oz equals $8.00 (I bet this is the one you were going for!)

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:57 AM

Is the government mandating lower salt/sodium content in food and drink? I had not heard that but would be interested in info.

Not every government intervention is the work of Big Brother. Sometimes these make sense. I may be a bit biased as that may be my own hypertension talking.

-- Posted by SWBG on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:24 AM

After reading todays story about the horrific shootings in Jackson Monday night I was surprised to see that the husband an Iranan/american citizen had been stock piling guns and ammo not to mention an ouzzie with a 100 round clip, did this not raise suspesion with someone? Do we not keep track of who are buying these weapons? especially when purchased by someone who is not born an american citizen?

-- Posted by cattie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:09 AM

cattie, I was left with the impression these guns had been obtained illegally. It is hard to control that.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:12 AM

In reference to the price of gasoline and bottled water, I don't see what one has to do with the other. The same parallel can be drawn with many items, but I don't see how it changes anything or is relevant. You have a choice as to whether you wish to spend money on bottled water, but if you live a significant distance from work, you have no choice whether to spend your money on gasoline.

-- Posted by D'oh on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:19 AM

Even if they were keeping tracks of these guns it only takes one to kill. So in this case 1 or 5 makes no difference.

-- Posted by outnabout on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:22 AM

cattie and melange

The shooter was not a citizen of the USA, but a permanent resident. He could purchase or own arms legally.

Typical for yall to worry more of the instrument used in the killings than the motive involved.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:28 AM

"She also claimed that those weapons were obtained illegally because he was not a U.S. citizen."

http://www.semissourian.com/story/129532...

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:32 AM

outnabout

Do I take it that you are a proponent of gun registration laws?

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:34 AM

Babe, Don't mean to sound harsh, but motive doesn't really matter either. Dead is dead, and very sad!

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:34 AM

melange

Read the whole article. She was incorrect, according to the SEmissourian reporting.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:35 AM

Babe

Not really. My point was even if they were keeping track it wouldn't have mattered. Pretty sure one gun will not qualify being on a list. Everyone should be allowed to protect themselves. Sadly this is what happens when unstable people get their hands on them. To kill your own children instead of losing them in a divorce is beyond me.

-- Posted by outnabout on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:38 AM

"According to a U.S. law enforcement official, however, Mir Shain Moshiri was an Iranian with permanent resident status in the United States, which would not prohibit him from owning or buying a gun."

I did.

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:39 AM

Mizzou have fun at the cotton bowl. OSU is going to win another nation championship. Oh by the way we are #1 in the polls. Go Bucks!!!!!!!!

-- Posted by tgn on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:47 AM

melange

Motive does matter here and you cannot dismiss it with a sigh of sadness.

If you're going to be in favor of government regulations, I have one for you. How 'bout any bride be told at the license bureau that if her husband holds citizenship in a muslim country, she will be forfeiting her rights when returning to his country and that the USA embassy cannot help her.

This has happened in my family. My sister-in-law who is married to my brother has three sisters who married Iranian men whom they had met in college here. They had NO idea what the consequences would be, really, until later. The husbands keep them subjugated by threatening to take them back to Iran if they do not act like a proper muslim wife.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 9:48 AM

RE: Water and gasoline

Well, that depends on what brand of water you're buying.

RE: Mentos holiday

Are you joking? You have to be since you also mentioned the words "accomplishment" and "career of Rush Limbaugh" in the same sentence.

RE: Too much government

And you think that this is a BAD thing?

-- Posted by foodie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 10:51 AM

Did anyone ever respond to the 'clickable' email address of the journalists at the paper at the end of their articles? Did your email go through or was it returned? I have tried to contact several and gotten a message that it not a viable address. hmmmmm

Okay, all yall lurkers on the newspaper ...don't try to hide from us. LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 11:11 AM

cattie,

When did "UZI" start making a one hundred round clip? That seems a little far fetched just like your assumption how government should regulate "illegaly" purchased firearms. They do! But just like the saying goes, money talks.

It was a **** shame about the shootings. Instead of more regulations steming from the incident, green lights should be going off about the peaceful Arab way.

Mizzou,

Mizzou Number One! Mizzou Number One! Mizzou Number One!

Oh, that was last week. Just like Cape to be one week behind the times. Way to go editor!

-- Posted by fajar154 on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 12:10 PM

Babe,

Let me know if I have this right. You are against government involment in reguards to owning a gun, but you want the government to inform grown women the possible consequences of joining in marrage to a Muslim? Nothing against your sister's sister in laws, but unless they married these men back in say the 60's, it has been common knowlege that in Muslim countries women do not have the rights they have here when it comes to divorce and child custody. And not saying that the Men don't lie about their intentions, but kind of a 'buyer beware' kind of cituation don't you think?

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 12:16 PM

Oh, and don't get me wrong. It is a tragedy what happened in Jackson. And I am not advocating more gun control, because we have enough of that as it is. But, statisticly, how many men that have killed their families in the last say 10 years in the USA have been Muslem? His religion isn't to blame, his mental status is. I will never understand how anyone could kill their child for any reason. Wether it be by gun, beating, or drowning.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 12:28 PM

Pups

Oh alright, not a law, but a Public Service Message instead. We get bombarded with these messages, that we pay for out of taxpayer dollars, of domestic abuse on a daily basis. Why not make one that warns women who marry muslim men that they may be subjected to abuse far and beyond physical or verbal?

The influence of muslims on our country is vile and evil. I should have fear when I say this in a public forum, but I do not. I watched the live feed of the WTC bombings and I watched the live feed of the muslim community cheering. We have enemies and we should address it instead of being polite.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 12:44 PM

Babe,

So by your logic, Christian influence on this country is just as evil. Timothy McVay (a christian) was cheered by certian elements of the US. The men that bombed the black churches in the 60's were christian as well. The woman that drowned her children was Christian. The woman that killed her Minister husband was christian.

Lumping all members of a religion as evil because followers of that religion misconstru the ideal of that religion is not right.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 12:55 PM

conservababe,

Islam is a religion of peace. Women being treated as second class citizens is just the way their morays are. It is accepted and allowed. Take for example the teacher in the Sudan who's CLASSROOM voted on naming a teddybear after Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. Which so happens to be also the most popular name in all of the Arab world.

She had to unass that area of the world and relocate ('redeploy' circa John Murtha) to England.

I got off topic.

PUPSLOVER hit the nail right on the head. His mental stability has more merit on to why the guy went koo koo than his religion. I can never understand the mental capacity of a parent who can kill their children.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 12:59 PM

Pups

Golda Mier quote. "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. "

Now, I realize that not all Arabs are muslims, but all the terrorists have been muslims.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 1:19 PM

Babe,

Will concede the Golda quote. :-) I'm off to work. As always Babe, a pleasure to discuss with you. Even if we don't always agree. Hope you are feeling well today. Talk to you again soon.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 1:26 PM

fajar

If you wish to wear blinders as to who we are fighting in the WOT, then so be it.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 1:31 PM

Sorry Babe, I checked several dictionaries, NOT one mentioned "all the terrorists have been muslims."

Timothy McVeigh was Roman Catholic and possibly later Agnostic. Theodore Kaczynski seemed to respect others religious beliefs in his manifesto writings.

ter·ror·ist (American Heritage Dictionary)

n. One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

adj. Of or relating to terrorism.

ˈterrorist noun (Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary) (Beta Version)

a person who tries to frighten people or governments into doing what he/she wants by using or threatening violence

-- Posted by coke zero on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 1:56 PM

conservababe,

Are you kidding me? I'm NOT, by any means, saying that Islam is not to blame, but I am NOT saying that it IS to blame.

"If you wish to wear blinders as to who we are fighting in the WOT, then so be it." That was a Rosie Odonnell statement if I ever heard one except she was talking about the dangers of Fundamentalist Christians.

Just because, I don't think a religion as a whole can be blamed for a violent act doesn't make me accepting of their views and values. I believe in the whole "Trust, but verify," that Reagan created. Great man.

You should've said to get my head out of the sand. It has been out for two years now and I have trouble seeing the clear message on occasion.

Do not mistake my kindness with weakness.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:06 PM

hilleco

The WOT is not a war on countries, it is a war on muslims. Saudi, so far, has been our unfriendly ally. My brother-in-law has been there for three years as an oil driller. Sometimes our enemies are friends, sometimes not, as Iraq choose. Truth be known, the US needed a base in the area and Iraq fell right into their hands by defying UN mandates when they chose their invasion. Now, all the 'insurgants' are coming into Iraq and getting defeated. Have we been subjected to a another 9/11 yet?

They say democracy is a rowdy undertaking, but defence of our country is ever more complicated.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:18 PM

fajar

Do NOT mistake my weakness for kindness.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:25 PM

hilleco

How 'bout I just pick out two countries who did not have training camps for our enemies. I'm choosing Kuwait and Quadar.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:29 PM

melange

Do get your head out of the dictionary crease. There is a whole world out here that has nothing to do with a book of definitions.

What are your personal views of the WOT from foreign enemies?

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:37 PM

There is no war on terror.

-- Posted by lvsholeflow on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:38 PM

hole

If there is no war on terror, then why do you feel safe? Do you think that 9/11 was just a fluke?

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:43 PM

I feel safe because I don't live in fear of anyone. If there is a war on terror why is the budget being cut by over 50%. 9/11 was a demonstration of what happens to countries who interferes in other countries business. Hilleco is correct, if this was a war of countries the first would have to be Saudi Arabia, no other. For your information we haven't been attacked by Al Quida because they have been busy showing other countries what happens if you back the US. Iraq is a civil war, nothing more, nothing less. We destroyed the government and tried to implement our own but it has not taken place. Same as Viet Nam.

I don't get on often but do read these post when I can. I am from Southeast Missouri, born and raised, and don't feel akin to the lemming effect of this part of the country. Guess I was raised to be independent, critical thinking, and not to conform just to be liked. But then you would have a problem with that I think.

-- Posted by lvsholeflow on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:53 PM

Only fear I have is of religious zealots. Mostly Christians.

-- Posted by lvsholeflow on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:55 PM

Hilleco: Read any good books lately?

-- Posted by lvsholeflow on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:57 PM

Have a good evening folks and stay safe over the holidays.

-- Posted by lvsholeflow on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 2:58 PM

lvsholeflow

Iraq is not a Civil War. I am so sick of that end all statment. Like we're supposed to see the light because we know what Civil War looks like. Ours was 144 years ago and it was over land, property, and slavery. So close to the goings on today.

Saddam kept the three different sects in check for years. They got a little crazy for a while 04 to early 07. Now the locals realize that a country of their own is obtainable.

Besides, must a country be civil before we have a Civil War? Iraq is not niether.

Another thing, the surge is and has worked. IED sweep teams went from 11 hits every couple days to one in the last month. But considering the Mizzou ranked No 1 post, I guess lvsholeflow, your post could be a little dated.

-- Posted by fajar154 on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 3:07 PM

fajar154,

You are wrong, Iraq is in the middle of a civil war. How do I know? The CIA has published NIEs about it.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 3:33 PM

hilleco,

There could be Martians in Iraq, the reason why we are there is the reason why there are more American contractors and civilians in Iraq right now than military personnel... MONEY!

In this instance, money = oil.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 3:35 PM

9/11 was no fluke!The Muslim extremist on this planet must be handled with extreme prejudice!Some here prefer to be "woosyfied"(dont look this word up you get the meaning!)and believe we should leave the Muslim world alone.Not this American Veteran!How many have forgotten those citizens of almost all of the Countries Hilleco has mentioned,dancing in the streets

when the Twin Towers fell and the Pentagon was attacked?They hate us and want us wiped off the face of the Earth!I could care less where the Muslim extemist on those planes were from!!I have and will not forget..EVER!

I prefer to fight terror in the Muslim world and not in mine.I would not be at all remorse to see every radical extremist Muslim removed from the universe in any way necessary!I sure hope I did not upset any of you.This is my opinion and I wrote this post with much restraint!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 3:36 PM

Where do I start?

Ok as Americans we tend to see "muslims" or if your old fashioned "moslems" as one group. This is not a correct view. Anyone whom has lived among them knows this. One of the safest places an American can live is in the middle of an Albanian village in Kosovo or Kurdish town in northern Iraq. They like us very much and have for a long time. They do not view the "passage of the sword" as a literal mandate from allah. This is a view held by many peaceful cosmopolitin (usually sunnis) muslims all over the world. This goes back to a difference of opinion in how their holy book is read from. To begin with the book is broken up into two parts. One where Muhammad lived in Mecca and one where he lived in Medina. In one book he lived along side Jews in peace. In the other he became a warrior king kind of figure. Here is where the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza was captured and beheaded by Muhammad himself. In the second book of sura muslims are told to go out and meet the infedels where ever we are (no mention of leaving non-muslims in other countries "out of it") The present day muslims that are cutting off the opposite hand and foot in the Darfur or wanting to kill the British teacher or packing themselves with explosives are probably not going to be negotiated with regardless of what really cool thing you say to them. They believe that our very presence on earth is an affront to islam. nothing you can do. The ones that believe that the verse of the sword is covered by the more peaceful verses on not taking life and so on are fine to live next door. Problem is knowing which one is which.

Iaholeflow

No place in my bible does Jesus kill anybody. Your statements are in line with the PC crap hollywood and our pop culture vomit onto America. Think for yourself. Nobody that blows up a church can call themselves a Christian.

-- Posted by Donnie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 3:56 PM

Tarantulas!!!!

Good to see you back

-- Posted by Donnie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:00 PM

Hilleco:

extremist:one who focuses on hate toward

other Humans!and use all within his power to destroy them!How do we determine who is an extremist?

You use the best intelligence you can obtain!

Agression begets agression!

How do you define Islamist extremist?Or do you think they don't exist!Perhaps there are too many trees out yonder for you to see through.How many do you kill?As many as possible before they kill me!We can't sit back and wait for the next huge terrorist attack!although I believe its coming and it will be Islamist extremism that will bring it!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:03 PM

hole

I've never heard a muslim denounce his religious beliefs. Despite the fact that some "like" you, I would bet that you have not, either.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:12 PM

Alright folks...who we will determine to kill in the defense of our country is not our decision. When we put on a nice dress or a nice power tie and sit in on security briefings, then we will have the information to give our orders.

Don't worry, really, as that is why we elect our national officials. Now, go on to your day jobs and don't bother your minds. LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:19 PM

GREYWOLF,

Do you know why the extremists of the Muslim world "hate us"? It's because of our foreign policy. Do you know WHY we were attacked on 9/11? It's easy to find out, THEY TOLD US WHY! If the US could end it's trillion dollar a year policy of interference in the affairs of state of foreign countries (including those in the middle east), there would be no such thing as terrorism against US targets.

What you need is a history lesson, not to continue down this road of lunacy.

If you ever wish to be educated, contact me.

Until then, unless you have something constructive to add to the discourse, keep your Chinese prison labor made car flag magnet buying, Redneck Comedy loving, NeoCon dogma vomiting, simpleness out of the conversation.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:22 PM

Greywolf and Babe are correct. Extremist are the dangerous ones. But, Christian based extremist terrorist exist as well. Just ask Ireland. The US has just not been a target of them, yet.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:25 PM

Donnie,

I took a break for a while because after the recent bannings, thing seem to gravitate towards the middle... which is where 99% of this conversation should be.

It went all "quilting circle" for a week or two, and I totally dropped out. I'll be back here and there to call people like Greywolf on their idiotic hate speech, don't you worry :)

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:26 PM

spiderman

If we have been in Iraq all this long just for the oil...why ain't we got any yet?

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:26 PM

conservababe:

What makes you think we haven't? Exxon, Mobile, BP, all the major oil companies are there right now dividing up the pie (so to speak). Will you as a consumer even see a price drop in oil as a result of the oil companies rape of the only natural resource of that region, no. You already pay around $3 a gallon for gas, why should they let the pressure up?

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:33 PM

Pupslover is right in a round about way.

greywolf is a representative of the christofacist movement in the US that wants to villanize and kill all muslims out of a misguided loyalty to people like GWB, who by their own actions, do not share the same values that christians (and christofacists) do.

Folks, christofacists are the true enemy in our society, and it is your job to root out and expose these people. You can no longer afford to stand silent while these merchants of hate poison and destroy our society.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:40 PM

Spider:You are woosyfied!You read it right!

Oh yeah!All your Muslim friends are sure working hard to stop these Extremist from

using terror to bring us down!If all the Muslims were so loving toward us than where are they?Why do they not stand up and fight

those among them that are extremist!?Your an isolationist Spider so be it!I sure Am glad folks like you were not running things when Hitler's Germany was taking over the free world!You would have just said"leave them alone they won't hurt us!Its people like me who will protect your IDIOTIC butt!Your welcome!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:42 PM

Hill

The ones that want to kill us.

-- Posted by Donnie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM

Hill

got no hate for them, I just lived with and understand them a little better

-- Posted by Donnie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:53 PM

Wow, here we go again. History lesson 101. The US did have an 'isolationist' attitude toward Hitler and Europe. It was the attack of the Ally of Germany, Japan, that got the US into WWII. Up until then, the US had no intention of trying to stop Hitler.

Sorry Greywolf.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:54 PM

GREYWOLF:

You just fell in the same trap that McCain did at the recent CNN debate... And he got boo'd for being stupid enough to say it.

Don't invoke Hitler if you don't have the mental wherewithal to defend your baseless statement. You have already lost the argument by invoking Godwin's Law right out of the gate (go ahead, look it up).

You cannot compare Iraq to Nazi Germany. It's not the same ballpark, hell, it's not even the same sport. The Nazi's wagged an AGGRESSIVE WAR against it's neighbors in Europe (which is important to remember that it was one of the 1st charges brought up at the war tribunal after the conflict, and will likely be written into the history books regarding our involvement in Iraq)

The only people using terror are people like you (christofascists) who constantly harp about what danger we are in from a organization that doesn't even have standing army, or equipment like tanks and planes to fight us with. Our efforts are akin to a person who puts land mines in their yard to stop kids from soaping their windows on Halloween.

You use fear as a tool to break American resolve against our own government who would remove our civil liberties and actual security in an attempt grab more wealth and power.

And the muslim world is helping. You know "the surge" that you hear our American generals talking about being a huge success? It's a success because the tribes in the north and south of Iraq have taken back the job of policing those regions, which has nothing to do with US troop numbers, or how many Iraqi citizens that Blackwater can torture.

Please, for everyone sake, stop making a fool of yourself... on second thought, keep it up, it's the most entertaining thing many of us may have seen today.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:55 PM

PUPSLOVER:

It was isolationist policies that got us into trouble.

The important thing to remember is that non interventionalism isn't the same thing as isolationism.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 4:58 PM

Tarantulas,

" non interventionalism isn't the same thing as isolationism."

You are correct, and will admit that up until recently I did not differentiate between the two. The US took a non intervention stance with Hitler, not an isolationistic then?

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 5:04 PM

Spiderman

Spoken like a true liberal. I don't even usually bother to reply to liberal 101 graduates who were told that the world hates us for what we have done.

Do you speak German, by any chance?

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 5:12 PM

Babe,

What's your point about speaking German. Many, many, many in this area speak German. I myself speak some. And no offense to you, but I am extremely proud of my German Heratige.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 5:16 PM

I sure hope your savior Hillary wins Spider!

It obvious your nose would get broke if she turned around too fast!I am very happy Sadam is dead and died a terrible death!I am sure those Kurd Families who had their loved ones gassed are too!Kinda a bit like Hitler Huh!!

Oh but Iraq was not a threat to the rest of the world were they?Tell that to the Kuwait

people!No he was a great Man wasn't he!

I see MANY similarities between Hitler and The DEAD leader of Iraq!I also hope that any more leaders like Sadam or Hitler on this planet soon meet their end too!But your the smart one Spider and I am the idiot who fought for your right to be in bed with Hillary!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 5:30 PM

Gee, Pups, I'm late...and was just going to make a similar comment to yours--"The US did have an 'isolationist' attitude toward Hitler and Europe. It was the attack of the Ally of Germany, Japan, that got the US into WWII. Up until then, the US had no intention of trying to stop Hitler." We, in fact, were rather friendly toward Hitler for some time--and we refused to give sanctuary to boatloads of Jews who had escaped Germany fairly early on. Find the newspapers from that era for more details: probably will not find it in our history books.

-- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 5:41 PM

Pups

No offense to anyone of German heritage intended but I was told by a vet of WWII that it is due to soldiers such as he that we don't speak German as our NATIONAL language.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 5:47 PM

Babe,

Not sure that German would have been the national language even if Germany had won in Europe. But accept your explaination (man my spelling off tonight.).

BTW, you never said if you were feeling better this week.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 5:52 PM

hilleco

I keep telling you and telling you, but you won't listen. Just pretend you have on a red power tie and are sitting in on security briefings.

We went to Iraq because we needed a base in the area. Pure and simple. Saddam (the stupid) fell into our laps like a ripe plum when he tried to invade Kuwait. Daddy Bush decided just to contain him and sanction him. Dubya decided to finish off the job and kill him. The fact that Dubya turned down Saddam's offer to leave the country if he was paid 6 million dollars was proof of his resolve.

And now we will always have military bases in Iraq, which we needed. As I said before, national security is a messy, but necessary business.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 6:01 PM

PUPSLOVER: Don't fall into the trap of trying to compare Iraq with Nazi Germany. You're much smarter than that. If folks did more than listen to the main stream media, they would realize that Saddam was one of the most secular leaders in the middle east, and didn't kowtow to the religious extremists who we are at odds with currently. Did you know he wrote romance novels? It's crazy, but true. The US thought he was a nice enough guy that Donald Rumsfeld shook his hand.

conservababe:

You too should be wary of falling into the trap of trying to compare Iraq with Nazi Germany. And no, I don't speak German, but yes, I understand the point you are trying to make... albeit a rather thread bare one. You should likely thank our friends/enemies/friends the Russians for truly making the Germans pay for their war of aggression. There is absolutely no way that the Japanese or the Germans could have mounted a land offensive against the US. Keep in mind, the resources that Germany had at that stage of the war was what was inside Germany, we had an entire world to cull parts from. You might even say that reason we won the second world war was our industrial sector being located thousands of miles from the front lines, instead of hundreds.

Also, we don't need military bases in Iraq or any other country for that matter. If you think it's a matter of national security, that these bases somehow ward off attacks by foreign powers, I ask you to name how many foreign military bases that Germany, France, Israel, Japan, China, and Korean have abroad. It's zero.. thats how many... and who is talking about invading those countries? No one. You have bought into a trillion dollar a year lie that the Neo Conservatives have sold you that someone spending money on the perceived security of other nations somehow makes America safer. It doesn't. If our President really thinks that "we have to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here", why is our front door wide open to Mexico? Because, these are the same people who don't see the US as a sovereign country. Do some reading on the North American Union and you will see what the CFR has in store for our nation. Will it take the UN to fly a flag of the One World Government for folks like yourself to see what is being perpetrated around you?

We are spending trillions of dollars to fight a enemy with no standing army, no planes, no tanks, and no real infrastructure.

What's wrong with this picture?

GREYWOLF:

I'm fighting a Hillary election every chance I get. She's part of the CFR and has no respect for the sovereignty of our republic! I stand with those who stand by the Constitution, not propagandists who use fear to achieve their political ends.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 6:58 PM

Tarantulas,

Sorry, but I wasn't making that comparison. Just correcting what I thought was an incorrect statement by Greywolf.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:13 PM

Spider

Been there...done that with the CFR. Just because you write tomes does not mean you are not gullible to misinformation.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:19 PM

conservababe, maybe somebody has already called you on this, but you said that all terrorists have been Muslims. Sorry but that simply isn't true. McVeigh is a prime example.

-- Posted by SEMOfan80 on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:24 PM

I find myself playing both sides of this discussion not because I want to fan the fire but because I find myself in different places when talking about particular issues. As for Saddam being a bad guy, there is no question. I however don't believe that anything less than a really bad guy can run Iraq or any other similar nation. I know that sounds terrible but for us to superimpose American values over Iraqi people and pretend that they want to be like us is to ignore the truth. It took Tito to run Yugoslavia (for those young among us that would be all the tiny little nations in the Balkans) Now was Saddam THE bad guy we want running Iraq, I must say no. I hear all this WMD stuff and no there were no nukes when we got there. I do have a picture I took of a wall mural behind Saddam's big desk in the cental palace in Baghdad. It was of several missles with Iraqi flags arching up into the night's sky heading west (toward Israel. He almost worshiped the idea of having nukes. He just didn't/couldn't get it done. Sooner or later he would have. To understand Saddam you must understand that he was El-Tikriti. He saw himself as a second coming of the warlord Saladin (also of the Tikriti Tribe) Saladin pushed the Crusaders from Jerusalem in 1187 and became more than just a hero. The fact that Saladin was Kurdish is ignored by Saddam. Anyway Saddam was an absolute nut job. He would have eventually gotten his hands on a nuke. The paint would not have even been dry on the Iraqi flag and that thing would have been headed for Tel-Aviv beginning a war with world wide implications. To say Saddam would have never used WMDs it to ignore the fact that he DID use them. No Saddam had to go but now we're stuck. We can't leave. We don't have the guts to run it like he did (I'm thankful of that). If we leave the power vacuum could bring someone even worse. (See Iran) We have people even here in America (heck even on this blog) rooting on the fedayeen and the maadi armies against our own brothers and sisters. I don't have any good answer. The media is all over the American people "to do something". The deaths are terrible but the media makes it seem that the Army is going to collapse. We're not. There have been 318 gun shot killings in Philli just this year. It took the war in iraq to the middle of January to catch up to the numbers of gun deaths in New Orleans after the new year. It is bad over there. (I've been there almost three years total counting 90-91) But its not what the media paints. One is too many but that just isn't the world we live in. We are going to have to accept that to gain and keep stability in that region we are going to lose lives. That means sons, daughters, husbands and wives. Everytime I read a headline that says "Al-Qaeda fighters streaming into Iraq" All I can say is at least it doesn't say Al'Qaeda fighters streaming into Boston, New York or LA.

Spidey

They don't need tanks and infastructure and a standing army. All they needed last time were some box cutters

-- Posted by Donnie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:27 PM

spider

BTW....all those countries that have no foreign bases...why should they worry...as we protect them, as always.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:30 PM

Semo

Good lord, McVeigh took at least one trip to Pakistan to train at a muslim terrorist camp before he and his two buddies murdered those people.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:41 PM

Babe,

Are you saying McVeigh was a Muslim convert? I did just a little research and found this information. Can't say it is 100 percent accurate, but it is what it is.

"Religious beliefs

After his parents' divorce, McVeigh lived with his father, and his sisters moved to Florida with their mother. He and his father were devout Roman Catholics who often attended daily Mass. In a recorded interview with Time Magazine[3] he professed his belief in "a God", though he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "never really picked it [back] up." The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter claiming to be an agnostic[4], though his execution included a Roman Catholic ceremony."

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:49 PM

I'll bring some of my war pics to the Friday meet and greet. Sorry my posts were so long tonight. See ya'll tommorrow.

-- Posted by Donnie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:50 PM

Well I almost left.

Pups

dude believeing in "God" doesn't make someone a Christian. I can show you a few places in the Bible where Satan TALKED to God. He knows he is there but that doesn't make him or Tim a Christian

-- Posted by Donnie on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:52 PM

Donnie,

You brought up valid points. I look forward to discussing it with you more at lunch.

Have a great night.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:53 PM

Pups

I don't know if McVeigh was a converted muslim or not. But he and his arab buddy did train in Pakistani muslim terrorist camp.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:55 PM

Donnie,

Just was saying that not all evil is done by Muslims. And not saying Tim was Christian, just that he claimed to be.

And I know there is more to being Christian then believing in God.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 7:55 PM

Babe,

Are you meaning Jose Padilla as his 'Arab' friend?

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:05 PM

conservababe:

There is no proof that McVeigh trained with Muslims or attended any sort of terrorist training camp. And just because you can only squeeze out a 3 line response to a 5 paragraph rebuttal doesn't mean that you didn't just pull that connection out of your arse.

Everything I mentioned in my response is searchable online with sources that exist outside the tinfoil hat crowd that you seem to have pulled this McVeigh / Muslim connection.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:10 PM

No, that is not his name, as I recall. In fact, I don't know if his buddy was ever identified, actually, as to his true name. I cannot believe I spent over a year reasearching this topic and now I forget.

I hate "senior moments". LOL

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:16 PM

Donnie:

All it took was box cutters.. and what has really been done to beef up airline security in the wake of 9/11? Nothing. All the government did was make it illegal for agencies outside the FAA to document and point out flaws in security. Self regulation.. because the airlines were doing such a bangup job BEFORE 9/11

Also, if all we need to do to stop people from crashing planes into buildings is an air marshal, why all the complaints about the costs?... yet to question the tax payer cost of creating a profit orgy in Iraq for the corporations that run our government is somehow viewed as unamerican?

I appreciate the sacrifices you have made for our freedom. But I want you home, and out of harms way. That seems like it should be everyones goal, not warmongering like greywolf.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:16 PM

Well, mr spiderman

How 'bout, unless it is stated as merely our opinion, we both quote our sources in our posts from the onset?

Stick that up your arse, deah.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:20 PM

conservababe:

I think you were meaning this guy.

Adam Perlman... the "american al qaeda"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Yahiye...

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:20 PM

hilleco:

Lets not forgot all the christians and jews that Bush is still warhawking to displace out of Iran even though his cabinet just got caught with their pants down.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:21 PM

conservababe:

Me referencing something that is in the realm of public knowledge, and you "misquoting" and having "a senior moment", are two very different things.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:23 PM

hilleco

Just exactly which war are you speaking of...the daddy's or the son's?

But, if you are ever going to ask me if collateral damage is worth the freedom of others, I will say YES.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:26 PM

mr spiderman

I would appreciate it if you would source your statements of facts for us, unless they are your very defined opinions or feelings.

-- Posted by conservababe on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:28 PM

You're right bottled water is expensive , but when I put it in my gas tank I don't go very far.

-- Posted by olebluehair on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:31 PM

olebluehair,

LMAO, very funny and very astute. Thank you.

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:34 PM

Babe,

Oh ok, I wasn't sure what you were refering to by the friend comment. There was speculation at one time that there was a connection between the two because they both lived close and Padilla was familiar looking to the sketch of the other man with McVeigh at the time of the OKC bombing.

Wow, was that a run on?? LOL

-- Posted by Pups on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 8:46 PM

You can get a gallon of natural spring water on sale at L**e's home improvement for 96 cents.

I think the bottled water argument on the price of gas is mute.

-- Posted by Mosely on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 10:22 PM

Watch out arachnid! The black helicopters are going to circle your house just like they do over at MJB's!

Get yourself some blue tubs and satellite dishes.

-- Posted by workin' them angels on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 10:59 PM

Spider has spoken!I am a war monger.

Well spider!There always will be wars.

There always has been.I prefer to be ready

and in position to fight wherever needed when human freedoms are at stake!It sickens me to hear you defend Sadam and tell us he wrote poetry!At least he is a member of the dead poets society!Thank God.We have had this conversation before and most folks here know where I stand on the fight against terror and extremist Islams!I have a right to my opinion as does everyone here.If I am wrong so be it. I have been wrong about many things in my life!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Wed, Dec 5, 2007, at 11:14 PM

Grey

You made me laugh so hard when I read your Saddams 'dead poets society' comment.

He was an evil and vile dictator. But we didn't break our own stupid laws against assination because his own country hung him.

-- Posted by conservababe on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:00 AM

GREYWOLF:

Intelligent people aren't proud of their failures.

"If I am wrong so be it."

This seems directly in line to the rhetoric I hear everyday from idiots like Mike Huckabee...

"We are one nation. We can't be divided. We make a mistake, we make it as a single country, the United States of America, no not the divided states of America."

The trouble is, the people that made this mistake are the political cabal in Washington, NOT Suzy Homemaker in Louisville Kentucky.

People with your stance are too enamored with the smell of their own flatulence to realize that we need to stop this idiotic campaign of "trying to save face" and just do the right thing.

Your thought process is flawed.

I don't expect you to understand. The brain washing you received to make you this way must have been with ultra strength all temperature Cheer.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:00 AM

Also, I said he wrote romance novels, not poetry (but he may have done that too).

Since you have bought so far into the NeoCon lies about the war, there is no way that you could concede the truth that even with all the crimes that Saddam committed against the Kurds and other groups in Iraq (did you know that we sold him the "WMDs" he used against the Kurds?), he was a friend of the US for many years, and one of the only secular leaders in that area of the world. He tamped down the fundamentalist Islamic groups that sprung up for the aid we gave Bin Laden in the 80's to radicalize that area of the world to kill Russians in Afghanistan for us.

I don't think there is a worse insult I can lob at either one of you. In the face of the truth, you willingly ignore it to support the agenda of people who wouldn't wee you out if you where on fire.

conservababe and yourself are the very worst type of people...

Willfully ignorant.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:10 AM

Tarantulas,

way to go! really, I mean it.

Greywolf,

Should everyone thank you for protecting us? I seem to recall that you never been to war? Oh, wait, you were prepared to, but didn't.

I don't think that it is very truthful to say that you have "fought" for our freedom when others "really" have.

-- Posted by MOJO_at_SEMO on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 12:22 AM

MOJO_at_SEMO

In fairness and defense of Greywolf, I believe you have him confused with someone else. Grey has stated before that he has served either in Korea or Vet Nam or both. Or at the very least a retired military person.

-- Posted by Pups on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 1:09 AM

Such a sad situation...I just read the update on this case.

http://www.kfvs12.com/Global/story.asp?S...

I've had to file an exparte before myself. Until the paperwork is served on the other party, you HAVE to take measures to protect yourself, even after the exparte has been served. For whatever reason, Katherine didn't do that. She should have had someone else with her to intervene, (which in this case probably wouldn't have worked anyway, he would have probably shot them too), change the locks=stall time, and absolutely should have left the residence with her children. None of that happened. Instead, her husband showed up and went on his rampage. Maybe she thought it would also just get his attention for imprisoning her the day before...who knows what she was thinking? I'm sure in time, we'll hear her story. But I just want to express to ANYONE out there...If you feel the need to exparte someone...ALWAYS take measures to protect yourself. First of all, get away from the situation you were in. Run and hide. You never know how that situation can turn on you. A person who you think will cower, can turn extremely violent when they feel up against a wall. Unfortunately, this is a prime example. Just because you think they'll never go there, doesn't mean they won't. My heart goes out to all those that have been effected by this tragic affair.

-- Posted by leighann457 on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:41 AM

Pups,

Nam, but didn't go "in country".

I favor to read in the "shadows".

Kinda like the blogs every once in awhile.

-- Posted by MOJO_at_SEMO on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 2:45 AM

Yes I am a Vet!And did serve during Viet Nam!

But spider knows all!He is democrat!Of course he knows all!I will no longer defend my position on Iraq or the middle east!By the way "daddy long legs" I am well aware of how we were in bed with Iraq and Sadam!I am also aware of how friendly we were with Bin Laden when he fought against THE USSR in Afganistan!We were friendly with Hitler at a time also!So whats your point?Yes we have sold many weapons to many foreign nations!again whats your point?You think the world would be a perfect place for you to build your web as long as the United States stays out of other Countries buisness!Now who is the idiot and the worse kind of person!All you can do is name call!Thats all you ever do in this media!You my friend are the worse kind of COWARD,yes coward!If you have a problem with that comment(and I hope you do)

live with it!Just like you will have to live with your pacifist little existence!Grow up

and for now I will refrain from responding to you on any topic!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 6:29 AM

By the Way spider!

Never insult a Vet!No matter where,when or how he or she served!If you are a Vet,you know that!You do not understand the meaning of debate!All you do is insult and name call when someone does not agree with your Liberal

mind set!You are disrespectful and a bit scarry,but then most democrat and republicans are!

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 7:26 AM

GREYWOLF:

You keep calling me a Democrat, which shows your inability to understand that things aren't either black or white. If you read my posts, you'll know my affiliation, which is to the US Constitution.

America is not allowed to go to war without the permission of Congress.

Also, just because you are a vet, doesn't mean that you are somehow beyond insult. You were likely drafted to fight a war against the invisible enemy of communism. Thousands of American's lost their lives in the Vietnam and Korean conflicts, but does it justify our aggressive military actions against those nations? Communism is a red herring.

The type of "security" you want America to have is the same type of vengeance that a person locked in a dark room would display, swinging and thrashing at every noise or movement in an effort to protect themselves.

If you could separate the Iraq war from the true architects of 9/11, you'd be able to see that even Ghandi would have supported a invasion in Afghanistan... but predicating a war on lies in Iraq is unforgivable.

-- Posted by Tarantulas on Thu, Dec 6, 2007, at 8:14 AM


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