Speak Out: U.S. HEALTH CARE: Are we spending too much for too little?

Replies (45)

• I believe that if we were charged accordingly for services rendered, there wouldn't be a health care cost issue.

  This nation is very greedy, hence the collapse of our economy and the feeling of entitlement to bailout money. Ridiculous!

  Healthcare should have gone under long ago, but they are raking it in. Remember a long time ago when we were young and you didn't run to the Dr. for every little sniffle and most of us didn't have insurance?

  The countries listed above, as far as I know, don't make the money that the fortunate job-having Americans make. If they were charged our prices, they couldn't afford to have healthcare either. Remember, this is why we outsource all of our jobs...its cheaper there.

  -- Posted by OnTheFence on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, at 7:29 PM

• I am no expert, but I would like to think I have a little common sense---though at times I'm sure my friends might argue the point.

  I pay approximately $1000/mo for my wife, my child, and myself to have health insurance. We have a $1000 deductible for each of us; thus unless we have $15,000 worth of medical bills each year, insurance never pays a dime except for routine doctor visits, lab work, and prescriptions.

  I recently received a bill from a local hospital's Express Care for my $30 (discounted from $75) co pay--no problem right? (Remember, I have insurance that I pay dearly every moneth for)

  I was curious so I called the hospital and asked what I would be charged if I used the Express Care and had no insurance. Guess what? $30

  I asked to speak with the office manager and then proceeded to question WHY I was being charged a co pay of $30 even though I had insurance and she explained to me that my insurance company negotiated a "deal" whereby MY bill was discounted to $30 and that's one of the benefits of my paying premiums.

  I then asked her about the "man" with no health insurance being charged just $30 as well and she replied that it was a courtesy given to their uninsured patients. I then asked her WHY I was expected to pay the same amount as someone with no insurance and she replied that the $30 was my co pay. I told her I realized that but I asked why the uninsured "man" was not expected to pay $75. She was indignant and asked me where I got my information. I told her from her own billing department. She then told me that she was not going to discuss charges for non insured patients with me and hung up on me.

  Some may argue that I pay so much in premiums in case I get really sick---cancer, heart attack, etc. Well lets assume that happens and I am stuck with out of pocket of a $100000 bill---approximately $10,000 for my family. I dont know about you but I dont have an extra $10,000 lying around.

  HEALTH INSURANCE----the most legalized form of stealing since the FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

  Speaking of which....now Obama wants to TAX my health care benefits to provide health care to those who do not have it.

  That ain't right!

  I would suggest the following:

  1. Completely do away with this cash cow we call Medicare and Medicaid. Not completely as I feel we have to fulfill the promises we made to our elderly years ago.

  2. Force hospitals and doctors office to have posted a price list of what they charge for supplies, procedures, lab work, tests. etc. so that the patient can comparison shop. The politicians scream for a free market except when it comes to health care.

  3. Tort reform. I read once where 50% of the malpractice cases come from 5% of the doctors. The solution is easy---get rid of that 5%. Also, if a doctor is found guilty of gross negligence---they dont get to be a doctor anymore. I realize this might put some lawyers out of work, but oh well.

  4. Give incentives to doctors who keep costs low for preventive types of medical care.

  5. Generics for ALL drugs. Prohibit drug reps from giving perks to doctors for writing scripts for their drugs.

  6. Streamline insurance so that they are required to write policies on all who seek to be insured ---you could have a LOW MEDIUM and HIGH RISK rates.

  7. Allow consumers to buy health insurance ala carte----as a 45 yr old male I will never have to have maternity benefits BUT I believe federal law requires it.

  8. Give incentives (tax breaks) or rewards to health care providers who are willing to work with low income patients--treating them at lower rates or perhaps even pro bono.

  9. Require health care providers to be held accountable for poor service.

  10. Allow Americans to set up their own health care savings accounts using money from their employers that now go to HMOS and other insurance companies.

  11. Allow Americans to be on the same health insurance policy that its federal workers are on.

  -- Posted by WisdomSeeker on Mon, Jun 22, 2009, at 8:14 AM

• In the US, the health care industry treats people as a commodity. You are a customer, not a person.

  Hospitals are for-profit, which means you'll get (and be billed for) unnecessary tests, procedures and treatments. Because the insurance companies are for-profit, you're expected to pay exorbitant premiums, but they will go out of their way to either quash a claim or just drop you altogether.

  Then there are the pharmas who have resorted to just inventing diseases so you'll buy drugs.

  Get rid of the greed, and you'll get better, cheaper healthcare. Will it ever happen here? Heck no.

  -- Posted by FriendO on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, at 10:32 AM

• You really are correct, James: Government grows off conflict and government provides plenty of reasons for conflict in the field of health-care.

  OnTheFence ... I do remember the days when most people didn't run to the doctor for every little thing ... and when most of us had no insurance. Odd that so many people managed to survive, isn't it? So many of us no longer treat something like a cold as an illness that will go away on its own without a doctor's visit. Not going to look it up, but believe some of those mentioned countries do compare favorobly to Americans in income.

  As far as the cost of prescription medicines ... At least in Mexico and Canada our own drugs are cheaper than they are here, last I read ...

  Well, thanks for at least that much, Wisdom, on Medicare ... " ...I feel we have to fulfill the promises we made to our elderly years ago." ~grinning~ Don't remember what year it was that the government started deducting Medicare payments from our paychecks. Now, on Medicare, one really should have Part B, a supplemental policy, and the Part D policy ... These three premiums amount to 'only' approximately $650 a month for us. It's worth it, but many might not see it like that.

  Many of your suggestions make sense ... but I especially like #11!

  WOBBLE, what you mentioned about drug companies/research, etc. really is true, unfortunately. And yes, many people want totally free health care ... I don't see that as being a good thing, as I believe that most citizens, including the low-income people, actually could pay at least something for it in premiums or co-pays--even if it meant doing without cable or cell phones ... It's human nature to handle things better if one has a 'partnership' in those things--as compared to the temptation to take advantage otherwise, if you know what I mean? But no doubt I'm in the minority in thinking that.

  Still ... the question is ... with statistics for US health care pretty much showing that we do pay more for it than in many countries ... but our health and life expectancy isn't really any better than in those countries ... Why?

  Kind of the same thing with our educational system ...?

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Tue, Jun 30, 2009, at 3:16 PM

• Sorry ... I missed this comment from FriendO ... "... the pharmas who have resorted to just inventing diseases so you'll buy drugs." There's a lot of money to be had by the pharmaceutical companies in making drugs that are geared to ailments which are not necessarily severe or life-threatening, but rather are life's little annoyances. Heck, no one wants to put up with 'restless leg syndrome' ... or impotency, right?

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Tue, Jun 30, 2009, at 3:26 PM

• Any one with ideas of the goverment taking over the health care in this country should just go one time for one day to a V.A. hospital. Trust me a 4 hour wait will seem like a previlge, you will more than likely not be able to understand your doctor from a land far away and he will not be the doctor you saw on your last visit. The issues go on and on and on...

  -- Posted by Airborne 95B on Tue, Jun 30, 2009, at 6:31 PM

• Airborne 95B--

  First of all, thank you for your service to our country. My family appreciates your sacrafice to your own family and friends.

  Second, isn't it a shame to think that our servicemen and women just have to take what they are given, with no choice whatsoever? I know nothing of the process for your benefits, but it seems odd that we would have foreign doctors at our own V.A. hospitals....I sure hope they are not ILLEGAL!

  -- Posted by OnTheFence on Tue, Jun 30, 2009, at 8:19 PM

• For some reason, the VA clinics and hospitals are not all 'created equal.' The one in Danville, IL is pathetic, one in Indianapolis is acceptable ... but the one in San Antonio, TX, and according to a friend the one he goes to in WI, are superb.

  Many of them do hire foreign doctors and/or interns ... Is it because they will accept less pay, maybe? What I don't understand is how these doctors get through our medical institutions and earn their degrees when they are so lacking in understanding or speaking English.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Tue, Jun 30, 2009, at 8:58 PM

• gurusmom, many doctors study abroad. I personally don't think the problem is them understanding me as much as it is me understanding them b/c of their thick accents.

  I don't expect health insurance to be free but it would be nice to have decent health insurance available to us at a decent price. So many plans offered now are outrageously expensive with very HIGH deductibles. With a family of four, paying $700./month and each member has a $5,000. deductible, heck for most families it might as well be a million. Something needs to be done, just not sure what.

  -- Posted by Turnip on Tue, Jun 30, 2009, at 10:14 PM

• You're right, Turnip ... Something really does need to be done. I just get so leery when it's our government doing it!

  Being on Medicare and paying what we do for all the supplements and Part B is, in my opinion, pretty much a good plan ... except that those are not generally geared to income, which means many seniors cannot afford them, while not being eligible for Medicaid help. Thinking of a friend whose SS is too much to qualify for Medicaid, but not enough to be able to afford the supplements and Part D premiums.

  I do have some problems with the way Medicaid is handled. Every time someone suggests having recipients pay a small monthly premium, or instituting co-pays for doctors' visits, or raising the co-pays for prescriptions ... there's a huge outcry about people 'not being able to afford' these things. Well ... what's more important ... having health care or having cable or buying non-necessities at Walmart?

  It could be, though, that I just don't personally know anyone who couldn't cut back just enough to pay at least $10-$20 a month in premiums, or $3-$5 for a prescription. I also believe that co-pays to doctors or ER's would help reduce the abuse that I see in both areas.

  IF our government officials could ever just use some common sense ... They might be able to come up with ideas that would work, at least for the majority. But then ... a government which decides that the children of families making up to $80,000 or more a year should qualify for health care under SCHIPP probably isn't going to come up with anything very responsible.

  Whatever our politicians decide to do about health care, you can pretty much bet it's going to cost a lot of hard-working people at least as much, if not more, than they might already being paying in insurance premiums.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jul 1, 2009, at 1:59 PM

• gurusmom, I'm really not sure where the $80,000. comes from but here's a site that explains MO's health care plan, it does involve premiums/copays in some instances. And the approx. cut-off is $52,800 for a family of 3.

  http://www.mcplus.org/

  -- Posted by Turnip on Wed, Jul 1, 2009, at 2:46 PM

• sorry, I forgot...I do agree MC+/ER's are abused, co-pays are a good idea. It would also help tremendously if some of these 'convenient cares' would stay open later.

  -- Posted by Turnip on Wed, Jul 1, 2009, at 2:49 PM

• turnip: SCHIP ... in MO, eligibility is now 300% of Federal Poverty Level ... In 2007 it was 200% of poverty level ((e.g., $41,300 for a family of four)

  http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?cat=4&ind=204

  It is really odd that the information I found before the tobacco tax was raised, which explained the changes that would be in SCHIP eligibility, isn't as easily found as it was a few months ago. Before the bill was passed, a figure of $88,000 for a family of four was mentioned. I thought it was on the Heritage Foundations website, but guess not.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Jul 1, 2009, at 9:53 PM

• Do you REALLY think an illegal alien could work at a federal institution undetected? HELLO?! As long as a foreigner has a highly specialized skill, they can get documents stating they are an asset to the country they are entering. They can also get legal entry if they have a specialized skill the country they are entering doesn't have a lot of people trained in that field. And, as for "not speaking English," HELLO!!! They have advanced degrees, they speak at least 2 languages, they have to. Also, how many foreign languages do you speak? When you travel out of Missouri, do people look at you and have difficulty understanding your speech? It's all relative. And no, they don't work for less pay. Remember, they can go anywhere in the world for their skill level. Did you ever think some of the foreign doctors are here to thank the US service because somewhere along the line the US military came to their country and helped them?

  -- Posted by bella10 on Thu, Jul 2, 2009, at 8:51 AM

• I'm consistently amazed at how much people pay for insurance.... And how little it covers.

  I have a family of four, I'm over 50, kids are both under 10yrs old....

  I have coverage for annual checkups, kids immunizations, wife's annual exams (including mammograms, etc.) with $35 copays.

  $50,000 Term Life on myself and the Mrs.

  $10,000 deductable (family deductible)... With an HSA.

  $361.00/month Right now I put $600/mo into the HSA so it will be fully funded in 14months (11 months in right now).

  And I worked a deal with our family doctor... I pay CASH.. No credit cards, etc. Straight from my HSA.. And I get a HUGE discount because I pay right away and they don't have to fight insurance companies to get it.

  You see, I don';t believe in letting other people do my negotiating. I'm the customer. I give the Doctors/hospital, etc. the ability to earn my business. In exchange they don't have the cost of tracking my insurance.

  It's amazing how inexpensive health care is when you take matters into your own hands.

  -- Posted by scottm52 on Thu, Jul 2, 2009, at 10:29 AM

• Without reading back through all the comments, bella10, I don't recall anyone claiming that there were illegal immigrants working at a federal institution ... but I could be mistaken. Realize that there have been remarks about not being able to communicate very well with doctors whose foreign accents make it almost impossible to understand them ... but also realize that they surely could make a more consciencious effort to speak the English language so that it is recognizable as such. One of my doctors evidently made it a point to do just that, so besides respecting his medical expertise, I respect him for doing so.

  Megal, have you been back to your doctor and diagnosed with COPD? If so, did tests show that you have Alpha 1 Antitrypsin Deficiency?

  Don't know what the solution to health care should be, James ... but as stated before, I doubt that our government can solve it in a competent way that won't be filled with beaucratic nightmares, and that would end up being cost-effective.

  Still ... my bottom line is that the gap between the cost of health care in America versus our general health and life expectancy seems somehow not very balanced.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Jul 2, 2009, at 5:52 PM

• Gee, James ... Are you sure it's American to use any common sense?

  Look at our schools ... last I read we're 23rd or 25th in the world in education ... even though we spend a disproportionate amount of money on our educational system.

  Before all the government involvement, many people had a better education coming out of 8th grade than they do graduating from high school now. Someday I'll search for that 8th grade test and maybe post it ... I doubt even most teachers couldn't pass it. Teachers in our 'earlier' days didn't even have a college degree ... We not only survived as a nation, but excelled in many areas.

  An example: This week, we received a thank you note from the second granddaughter to graduate from high school. It was as illiterate and ungrammatical as the one we received three years ago from the first gr. daughter. Of course, we should just be delighted that the girls even bothered to send notes, and not wonder how the heck they managed to graduate.

  It seems to me that our government expects responsibility from most of its citizens, while it presents little or no real responsibility.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Jul 2, 2009, at 8:46 PM

• Do we pay too much in the US for health care? Absolutely. I grew up in Perryville, and moved to Spain 7 years ago and work for a Spanish company. With this in mind, I have Spanish residency and am covered under Spanish healthcare, which is managed by Spain's government. I have roughly $60 or so taken out of my paycheck each month to cover my healh coverage. That's it. When I go to the doctor, I never have to pay a co-pay, and never see a bill. If I need a prescription, it usually costs around $3 or so. Even if you are unemployed, you still are covered, and don't have to pay anything. And while the system isn't perfect, I've never had any problems with the service provided, neither in wait time or anything else. Many people here can't understand how such a rich country as the US can have the system we have, with so many people not covered, the possibility of losing your home due to the inability to pay for medical bills, such high insurance payments, etc. And here, for those who don't want to deal with the government system, you can opt for private insurance, which I had when I first came to Spain. Out of curiosity, I checked last week to see what I would have to pay per month for private insurance again with Sanitas. 6 years ago, I paid rougly $50 per month for full coverage insurance, now it is around $70. Compared to what the average person or family pays in the US, it's a steal.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Fri, Jul 3, 2009, at 8:34 AM

• I totally agree. And it does seem that "market forces" rule, and from what I see, it's always to the patients detriment. I have always been of the opinion that health care should be available for anybody. It's fundamental for people in general, and for the economy as well, because a healthy population works better and is more productive.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Fri, Jul 3, 2009, at 9:03 AM

• Darn, Megal, I really hate to hear about your COPD. And hope you start feeling better. Just don't get discouraged ... And keep us posted!

  dpcaudle ... That's very interesting! I didn't realize that Spain had a government health care. Are your premiums that are taken out of your check based on income, or is that what everyone who is employed pays?

  Unfortunately ... American government would never look very seriously at the pros/cons of any other country's health care program ...just as it never looks at what other countries apparently are doing right with their educational systems.

  I don't know if that is true, James ... "The culture of the US government is waste and inefficiency." but it certainly appears to be.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, Jul 3, 2009, at 2:47 PM

• Hi Gurusmom,

  What is taken out is based on income, and everybody pays in. As far as our government looking at other countries for ideas, I would tend to agree. I think as a country we tend to be concerned only with what happens inside our own border, what goes on anywhere else doesn't count for much. With my work, I've traveled quite a bit around the world, and it seems to me that every country has some really good things going on. (And every country has it's not so good things as well.) But the point is that there is nothing wrong with looking for good ideas in other places, especially when those ideas work. And I remember about 3 years ago, my parents came over for a visit. My Mom has high cholesterol, and she brought her prescription over here to Spain to have it filled, because it was 50% cheaper than what she paid in the US for the same medication.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Fri, Jul 3, 2009, at 3:28 PM

• Thank god for people like dpcaudle who actually can see (and lived) outside the US bubble. Thanks for helping bring light to the fact that other countries, gasp, have figured out better ways of doing some things than us Americans.

  We can be proud to be first in military power...but when it comes to education, health care, lifespan, poverty...sadly trailing.

  -- Posted by FriendO on Fri, Jul 3, 2009, at 5:11 PM

• As someone who has personally experienced NHS (UK) and healthcare in Canada... I'm really happy with the status quo in the US.

  Although, as I mention above, you MUST take an active part in the "business side" of healthcare if you want to save some money. And you can save quite a bit with a little effort.

  Perhaps this article will open some eyes a tad...

  http://www.reason.com/news/show/134553.html

  -- Posted by scottm52 on Sat, Jul 4, 2009, at 4:22 PM

• And I can immediately counter with this

  http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

  to "open some eyes"

  -- Posted by FriendO on Sun, Jul 5, 2009, at 10:02 AM

• Just curious, gurusmom, can you/have you spoken a foreign language? And how old were you if/when you learned one? My point, it is nearly impossible to speak a foreign language sans accent if you learn it after your speech patterns have formed. Can you make a consciencious effort to speak with a non-Southeast Missouri accent when you leave the area? Not hardly, it's just the way you are, it's the way we all are, our speech identifies us. If you can't understand the doctor, have them write what they are trying to say, most people read and write a foreign language better than they can speak it anyway.

  -- Posted by bella10 on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 9:02 AM

• Tried to copy the stats in Stephan B. Rickard's 'Letter to President Obama' Op-Ed on July 5 to post here, but nothing I tried worked. No matter how we spin it ... The US spends more percentage of our GDP on health care, but has the lowest life expectancy of all the countries cited.

  dpcaudle ... We, as a country, would do well to research the successes (as well as shortcomings) of other countries when we are trying to decide how to handle such important issues as health care. Why we don't is totally beyond me. It almost seems to be a 'Prideful' attitude ... the need to prove we know more and better than anyone else in the world. Really appreciate the information you have shared here!

  Will check your links later today, FriendO ... Assuming they might be opposing? That's what I personally prefer when trying to form my opinions about anything.

  bella10 ... SIGH ... ~smiling~ ... I only 'speak' a little of two foreign languages ... just enough to get me by ... Guess I'm fortunate in having a sort of knack for accents ... or maybe I just try harder? Never had any problem with being understood by the natives in Germany or Mexico. Anyway ... I always kind of hated that wherever I've lived (or visited) for even a short length of time, I subconsciously pick up the 'accent' of the area ... often to my dismay. Have one son who has that same 'curse' ... one week in upstate NY and he came back sounding just like a native New Yorker.

  Not being able to understand a doctor, or waiter, or the person on the telephone when I call for 'help' ... will always somewhat bother me. Sorry.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 1:53 PM

• Sorry, forgot your second question: Was 12 when I started learning German (teacher was a German native), and in my 50's when I began Spanish lessons.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 1:59 PM

• gurusmon,

  Ever think that the U.S. life expectancy is so low because of American's love of fast food and hate of exercise?

  -- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 3:00 PM

• Hi Gurusmom,

  No problem, just throwing my 2 cents in for what it's worth. I kind of think that as the number one power in the world, we just tend to get full of ourselves and think that everything that we do is the best way and the only way, while forgetting that even the best of us don't always get things right all the time.

  And just to comment on the language thing, where I work we have 97 employees, nobody speaks English, it's all Spanish. I speak German as well, but learned it when I was young. When I came to Spain, I couldn't speak a word of Spanish, had to learn on the go, and I must say, it was much harder to learn as I was older and my mind seemed to be "stuck" in the old groove of English and German. And even though I've been here now for 7 years and nearly 4 years of Spanish classes after arriving, people still can pick me out because of my "Yankee" accent, etc. Heck, my boss at work still asks me when I'm going to learn how to speak Spanish properly.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 3:34 PM

• dpcaudle, Did you notice any effort by the government to manage risk in the population? For instance, were there higher premiums for smokers, motorcyclist or others choosing riskier behaviors? That's been my main concern, that giving the government control of my health insurance will give them even more control over how I choose to live my life. Grabbing for power is something those in power seem to excel at.

  -- Posted by stevmo on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 7:12 PM

• That, too, DTower ... It did occur to me, although I've no idea what the stats on obesity, smoking, lack of exercise, etc., are in those other countries, so I didn't mention it.

  Wow, Megal, you really are multi-lingual! ~laughing~

  Yes, dpcaudle, it's much more difficult to learn a foreign language after we're grown ... Well, in my case, it's more a difficulty in memory than anything else. My Spanish has fallen away rapidly since we quit living in NM or TX and no longer visit Mexico. Hard to imagine going to a foreign country to work without knowing the language ... but it sounds like you've done okay with that. Bet your boss has a great sense of humor, from the sounds of it.

  "... kind of think ... we just tend to get full of ourselves and think that everything that we do is the best way and the only way ..." Think you may be about 98% correct.

  Good question, stevmo, ... or things like including a person's weight or genetic inclinations for things like heart disease, diabetes, etc.

  Still say ... leave governmental health care coverage alone for those with insurance, Medicare and Medicaid, and only concentrate on the population that has no coverage ... estimated at what? ... 10-12% of our population?

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 7:59 PM

• You're right, WOBBLE ... Although I'm not really sure that's typical of just a 'Democrat.'

  Unfortunately, I have a 'niece-in-law' who seems to make almost weekly visits to one doctor or another ... for herself and/or at least one of her children. I have seen the silliness (and wastefulness) of especially Medicaid in going to doctors for every minor ailment one can imagine. It annoys some to be told of the frustration of a physician friend in seeing so many sniffles and vague 'symptoms' of the Medicaid patients, many of whom they see often enough to recognize them in passing on the street.

  Perhaps they would feel differently in knowing that this mixed-race physician was born into a poor black neighborhood in SL, and worked his way through all his schooling ... and now takes care of his parents, while working as a doctor and also volunteering in several community projects geared to helping the poor obtain skills with which to better their lives.

  This is why I would like to see premiums and co-pays for Medicaid recipients. If, on their low incomes, they had to spend $10 for what amounts to a frivolous and unnecessary doctor's visit, they might think twice before going. On the other hand, a $10 co-pay would surely seem to be an acceptable amount if they were truly ill. AND I'd like to see ER departments being able to bill patients on Medicaid who can be proven to abuse the ER system ... or at the very least institute a co-pay there, too.

  I know, I know ... there are arguments about 'the poor' who would not go to a doctor for even a serious ailment if they had to pay $10 for the visit ... but I would view that more as stupidity than concern for the $10, which would probably be spent on something unnecessary to their well-being anyway.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Mon, Jul 6, 2009, at 9:27 PM

• Stevmo,

  As far as government managing risk and premiums, no, pretty much what is taken out of your paycheck depends on what you earn, that's about it. (And the smoking rate here is really high, if I remember correctly nearly 40% of the population smokes). If you opt out of the government program and go for private coverage, pretty much the same, a standard rate that depends upon age, and that's it.

  When I have to go to the doctor, I either call or go online to make the appointment, and usually can get in the next day without problems. When I go for the appointment, I never have to worry about paying a copay or anything, and never see a bill afterwards, not one piece of paper. I didn't realize how messy our system is in comparison, always having to worry about the copays, whether the insurance company would cover something, not to mention always having to navigate a mound of paperwork and bills that always seem to come out of a visit to the doctor or hospital back home in the US.

  And Wobble, I would have to strongly disagree with your comment on the "poverty level income" in the US being higher than middle class income in Europe. That's just nonsense. In many countries in Europe, the average family income for the middle class is on par with the US. Have you ever been to countries like Germany, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, the UK, etc? Europeans work less than we do, have more vacation than what we do, and have a standard of living comparable to ours.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Tue, Jul 7, 2009, at 1:10 AM

• I tend to agree Megalomania, we don't enjoy life like we should. I know quite a few people here who have visited the States and say we have way too much stress, are always working, never have time off, etc.

  Right now here in Spain, everyone is getting ready for vacation, as July and August are the most popular months to go. Many people will take 4 weeks off and disappear to the beach. And those 4 weeks don't include the other 12-14 official holidays throughout the year that people get.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Tue, Jul 7, 2009, at 7:17 AM

• WOBBLE

  I encourage you to read a study on poverty by the Brookings Institution here:

  http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/testimonies/2007/0213poverty_burtless/...

  Yes it's hard to believe, but the wealth gap in America means we have some of the poorest people of the industrialized world. Like I said, we're number one in military strength but sadly lacking in most other aspects.

  -- Posted by FriendO on Tue, Jul 7, 2009, at 10:36 AM

• Megalomania,

  Here in Spain maternity leave is 16 weeks with full pay for mothers, and the father can also take up to two weeks off with full pay. I would agree, it helps out the family immensely.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Tue, Jul 7, 2009, at 11:09 AM

• Been years, dpcaudle, since I read an article comparing our workers to those in other countries ... but it was pretty eye-opening. Average wages were generally somewhat higher than ours in many occupations, but the vacation times were way beyond what we Americans have (seem to remember Japan having the most vacation time at least). The theory they seem to have accepted is that an employee who has time to relax and spend with family is one who will work more efficiently. Something like that. Anyway, I certainly was envious ...

  Envious also of your health care there ... But you're right ... our system is 'messy' and convoluted, to say the least. If the current administration does pass a health care plan, it will be pretty much the same ... inefficient and burdensome. We can't do it any other way, apparently.

  Thank you again, so much, for all the information. Now if we could just get about 30 million Americans to push our politicians in the right direction ... ~sigh~

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Tue, Jul 7, 2009, at 1:37 PM

• Gurusmom,

  Yeah, there are many interesting things that people have access to here in Europe that we don't have, but one very rarely hears of other things in the States. FriendO put it well when talking about a "bubble" in the US. FriendO mentions a good point as well when talking about the wealth gap, which seems to widen every year. Here when it comes to health care, things are pretty even for everybody.

  What kind of always gets me though too is how politics seems to always get in the way of finding good, honest solutions that are pracitcal and that work. It seems like politics alwyas comes in and divides everybody all the time. Gets kind of depressing. And that is something too that you mentioned, getting our politicians going. I always like to think that the government is our government, but it's really getting people from all sides of the table involved in the process that seems to be the hard part. Because really, if we don't put our two cents in and let the politicians hear our voices, well, they go on their merry little way. Well,it's late here in Spain,and time for me to go catch some zzzz's.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Tue, Jul 7, 2009, at 4:03 PM

• The money comes out of everybody's paycheck. As I stated before, everybody pays in, and this is a benefit that is given to everybody as well. Everybody gives a little bit, and everybody gains a little.

  -- Posted by dpcaudle on Wed, Jul 8, 2009, at 6:56 AM

• The health care bill does NOTHING about the biggest drain on our healthcare industry.... the billions of ILLEGAl immigrants who flood our er's acros the country and do not pay a dime of it.

  Second- here is a thought about how ridiculus our healthcare industry is.... my parents are aging sr citizens and have many health issues, sames as my husbands parents. They can no longer keep up with thier homes and do essentials because their health is so bad. So I spent an entire day calling agencies like VNA and the many many other agencies like VNA... guess what- none of those agenices except only Medicare as insurance. you have to have Medicaid for it to be covered! Medicare does not cover their services. So my parents and in-laws can not receive such services since they don't qualify for medicaid! Isn't that insane?

  -- Posted by Skeptic1 on Wed, Jul 8, 2009, at 6:04 PM

• I can empathize with the situation of your parents, frazzled. Sometimes I get the silly idea that because seniors are no longer 'contributing members' of our society ...

  We can support and help women who elect to have babies ... because someday those women might eventually have enough income to actually pay taxes, and someday those babies might grow up to be taxpayers?

  Generally, once we have signed up for SS, we are worthless in the whole scheme of things ... So, we eventually get shoved into outrageously expensive nursing homes ... which means taking away not only our waning independence, but the SS we earned during our lifetimes, PLUS any assets (which have often been 'transfered' to family members within the states' time limits), and THEN Medicaid will kick in ... when it would be more cost-effective to allow us to stay in our homes with household help at least partially paid for by Medicaid.

  Thinking about the e-mail that circulated a while back ... comparing the cost of living on a cruise ship against the cost of living in a nursing home ...

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Jul 9, 2009, at 12:32 PM

• You KNOW I agree with this, James ... "Failure to educate was rewarded with more dollars for education, failure to end poverty was rewarded with more money to end poverty. Both worsened, by government figures."

  I've been trying to think of anything that our government has done, at least in the past few decades, that has truly been successful ... Or that hasn't changed to the point where it's become a money-eating monster which still hasn't solved the 'problem' for which it was created. Maybe someone can help me with this?

  Reluctantly agree with your statement, WOBBLE, about maternity leave ... because I'll probably be considered heartless. Having a baby is not an unavoidable illness ... so why should an employer be forced to pay the mother her wages while she stays home, and at the same time have to pay someone else to work in her temporarily-vacated position? So far, I have never seen an employer that has been forced to pay the wages of an employee who cannot work because of illness ... except for the ones who have accumulated 'sick days'.

  dpcaudle ... "... politics seems to always get in the way of finding good, honest solutions that are pracitcal and that work. It seems like politics alwyas comes in and divides everybody all the time." Thinking ... that makes most of our problems, and the lack of solutions to them, kind of our own fault. True ...

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Jul 9, 2009, at 12:41 PM

• I've been trying to think of anything that our government has done, at least in the past few decades, that has truly been successful

  Posted by gurusmom

  Come on Guru, where you been?

  In 1976, we imported 14% of our oil. Jimmy Carter said that was too much, so he created the Dept of Energy. Today, 100's of billions of taxpayer dollars later, we are no longer dependent on foreign oil.

  The U.S. had the most highly educated people in the world, so gov't created the Fed Dept of Education. Today, 100's of billions of taxpayer dollars later, the U.S. kids score the highest in every subject in the UNIVERSE.

  We used to have a drug problem in this country, so despite the fact we had an FBI to go after illegal drugs, the gov't created the DEA and today, 100's of billions of taxpayer dollars later, we have no drug problem in this country.

  What more evidence do you need Gurusmon? Government solves everything and makes everything better in the most efficient way. Don't believe me? Ask any liberal.

  -- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Thu, Jul 9, 2009, at 4:20 PM

• Very good answer, DTower!

  I predict that 'government-run' health care will be just as efficient, financially responsible and helpful to Americans as the things you mentioned.

  Still looking for the 'senior' issues in the proposed health care bill, WOBBLE ... If you have it somewhere, perhaps you could copy/paste it here ... then I can share it with all my on-line contacts, etc., as well as having substantive material in order to send letters to McCaskill and Bond and (uselessly because little correspondence to a president ever gets read) Obama.

  I have sent letters to the above stating my opinion on the ridiculous idea (Pelosi being one of the most fervent to get it passed NOW) of 'needing' to pass a health care plan within a 'deadline.' Stated that it's irresponsible to pass bills, like they did both 'stimulus' ones, without anyone having read them in their entirety, let alone having had time to actually comprehend all that may be in them.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, at 3:20 PM

• Never mind, WOBBLE ... SIGH!

  http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/is_it_true_that_persons_older_than.html

  United Kingdom's Department of Health and a spokesman: "It is not true that anyone aged over 59 years cannot receive heart repairs, stents or bypass surgery on the basis of their age." The National Health Service, the U.K.'s public health care service, has a constitution which prohibits discrimination on the basis of age and other factors.

  ... England's Age Concern and Help the Aged, which works to stop age discrimination in various facets of life, including employment and health care. Age Concern's press office had never heard of any kind of prohibition on heart surgery for those 60 and older.

  ... the province of Ontario has an air ambulance system that the Toronto Star called "the envy of North America" ... the province of Quebec, where Richardson was skiing, is the only province in the country that doesn't have an air ambulance system, according to the Star. Several states in the USA do not have air ambulance service.

  ... the stimulus bill "includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens." No, it doesn't.

  "Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them." Daschle didn't say that.

  ... those are the words of the former Republican lieutenant governor of New York, Betsy McCaughey, who wrote an opinion piece for Bloomberg News and offered her reading of comments in Daschle's book.

  He did write (without mentioning age) in his book "Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis": "The use and overuse of new technologies and treatments is grounded in American culture. ... More so than people in other countries, [Americans] just aren't inclined to fatalistically accept a hopeless diagnosis or forgo experimental interventions if there is even the slightest chance of success."

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, at 5:59 PM