Posted by Matt Sanders on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 4:58 PM:
In the wake of the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn., parents and educators everywhere are wondering about just how safe schools are. Opinions here and everywhere vary, as do the ideas for how to make them safer. The Southeast Missourian is creating this forum thread to encourage our website users to speak freely about their concerns for school safety, and to give their ideas for how to improve it. To leave a comment, you must be registered.
Matt, We had a thread that was discussing this somewhat. Just curious, where did it go?
I have no children in school and I am not aware of what measures are in place but I think advertising schools as no gun zones is not the answer.
-- Posted by Old John on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 5:04 PM
Matt,
I think our schools have no more/no less security than Newtown had. Kids come and go freely and there are no security guards. What happened there could easily happen here.
Have you seen the story of the school district in Texas where they allow conceal/carry by teachers? On it's face it sounds crazy and lunatic - easy to blame those nutty Texans. I listened to the superintendent talk about their policies and it is a very, very well thought detailed plan fashioned a bit around the concept of air marshals on planes.
You never know who has a gun, they are trained, they use ammo that is designed to stop at walls and they must carry their weapons at all times. It might be worth reading or researching. Again, his plan and comments were very well laid out and implemented for the school. They are no longer a gun free zone.
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 6:25 PM
My only concern , what happens if a teacher should flip out and go off the deep end ? -- Posted by .Rick Lately on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:01 PM
A person asked him that in the interview on the radio and his response was "What happens if a teacher should flip out today?". If they flip out, they will bring a gun to school and begin shooting - and no other teachers will have guns. At that school a number of teachers could defend against a teacher flipping out.
His point was that guns don't make people crazy so the odds of a teacher at his school doing that are no greater than the odds of a teacher at a school with guns.
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:08 PM
Matt,
I think our schools have no more/no less security than Newtown had. Kids come and go freely and there are no security guards. What happened there could easily happen here.
Have you seen the story of the school district in Texas where they allow conceal/carry by teachers? On it's face it sounds crazy and lunatic - easy to blame those nutty Texans. I listened to the superintendent talk about their policies and it is a very, very well thought detailed plan fashioned a bit around the concept of air marshals on planes.
You never know who has a gun, they are trained, they use ammo that is designed to stop at walls and they must carry their weapons at all times. It might be worth reading or researching. Again, his plan and comments were very well laid out and implemented for the school. They are no longer a gun free zone.
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 6:25 PM
Are the teachers required to have guns ? If so this sounds like a government mandate. Are the teacher mentally stable enough for this ? If they are carrying guns I would want a mental evaluation to show they will not go off the deep end. What if a child get his or her hands on one accidentally? Sorry but I think we cannot solve gun violence by mandating more guns.
-- Posted by 3forone on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:11 PM
Are the teachers required to carry a gun? NO. It is completely optional *and* anonymous. Only the administration knows who carries and who doesn't.
What if a child gets his or her hands on one accidentally? The teachers are required to carry them at all times. They are never allowed to put them anywhere except on their person.
The guns are never "mandated". This is 100% optional. There was a bill being discussed in Missouri to allow conceal and carry on college campuses. It never came up for a vote or even got out of a committee but I've got to tell you I think about VA Tech shootings and several other college campus shootings. All in "gun free" zones.
Your only other option is to do everything you can to stop someone from breaking into a school with a gun. I don't believe you can stop that 100% and I believe a teacher today could go beserk and kill students in a "gun free zone". This option didn't sound that bad to me.
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:22 PM
One other interesting point about Harrold TX. This program has been in place for a number of years. It's a big deal now and in the press a lot currently because of Newton. This is not something "new". I believe 5 or 6 years they've had conceal and carry in the school district.
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:23 PM
"They have all of the "legal" requirements to conceal and hold for no reason ."-- Posted by .Rick Lately on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:24 PM
I have a conceal and carry but don't have to teach to have it. If they move on then they'll just be like regular people who don't teach and have a conceal and carry permit.
Matt - this superintendent said he had a ton of calls from school districts and others for interviews and questions - including some in Missouri. He had some very well thought out points. I'd bet if you contacted him you could get a good interview and a great story for us. Just my two cents!
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:30 PM
Cages are pretty safe.
-- Posted by Simon Jester on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 9:13 PM
I do not support the bill that has been introduced in Missouri which would allow teachers to process firearms while on school property. Teachers are to educate our children not to act as an law enforcement officer. I'm afraid if this law is passed we are opening more doors to violence in our schools and some irate or disturbed student would end up disarming the teacher and then look where we would be. Don't make matters worse than what they already are.
-- Posted by swampeastmissouri on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 9:26 PM
-- Posted by swampeastmissouri on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 9:26 PM
In a fair amount of reading and listening to the news I've learned that all the killing was done in Newtown before the police even arrived. The police cannot protect a school from a mass killing.
In the Columbine, Colorado killings the first thing the two student killers did was lock the security guards outside the building. They knew how to reduce the threat.
So police, security guards and "scanners" don't work. And some of the strictest gun laws in the world (UK, Norway) apparently don't work either as mass gun killings have occurred there.
Solutions anyone?
rick V - WWLD?
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 9:55 PM
The violet world created by drugs, video games, music, and rationalized by Hollywood is the problem. We have seen it for so long we just take it as the norm.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 10:08 PM
Sorry Violent. Dang
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 10:08 PM
Matt: I think doing away with public schools would be a start.
Private schools would likely provide a degree of protection in order to satisfy customer demand.
Most of the public school shootings were done by young males who were considered geniuses or near genius. Most are on medication to tame a nature that most public teachers are not prepared for. Perhaps proper training for teachers to handle that genius without the need for medication might work.
The minds of geniuses are quite different that of an average child. Einstein would have likely been put on Drugs if attending today's schools.
The problem in most cases are drugs.
-- Posted by BCStoned on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:03 AM
Dug,
There is no solution. We were discussing this on the thread that has been deleted. We are a country of 320 million plus. Chances are there are a few freaks. Statistically our schools are safer now than they have been since the early 90's. That trend has continued for 20 plus years.
I do believe that people have the right to defend themselves anywhere. I don't think that teachers should be mandated to carry weapons, but why shouldn't they be allowed to carry if they want to?
I don't like the idea of police officers patroling the halls because the police wants bodies. Private security is preferable, but expensive also. I like the idea of volunteer security, but legal issues and reliability become problems.
Sending your children to smaller private schools or homeschooling are the best options. I know that some people cannot afford private schools, but I also know that a lot of people could afford private school, but would rather spend their money elsewhere and allow the taxpayers to pick up the tab. That's life. I am not a wealthy man, but my wife and I prefer to spend our money sending our kids to private school.
Does anyone talk to their kids anymore?
-- Posted by Simon Jester on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 5:06 AM
You know in reality we shouldn't even be having a discussion like this. Back in the day our Schools were the safest place around. What does that tell us now? it tells us how decayed our society has become violence is promoted today by video games, movies and rap music what have we the people done about it basically nothing just let it continue as long as it doesn't affect "me" today, well we cannot continue with that type of thinking the time has come that we must do something about it in a constructive and civil way as one America and not a divided America. The parents also play a very important role in this everything starts at the kitchen table at home a lack of proper parenting at home has also contributed to a lot of these kids going down the wrong track. Start with the type of culture we are living in today, that is where we can start at first and then work toward a solution to the problem.
-- Posted by swampeastmissouri on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 7:04 AM
Mike Kelley, R-Lamar has proposed allowing teachers to conceal carry. The Columbia school board opposes due to infringement on the school board's authority. Some question the lack of training and teachers judgements in defense situations.
Kelley says he will amend the bill to require more weapons training.
Just wonder how many would favor allowing teachers and school personel to conceal carry given they were properly trained and the local school board ok'd it?
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 9:52 AM
"What does that tell us now? it tells us how decayed our society has become violence is promoted today by video games, movies and rap music what have we the people done about it basically nothing just let it continue as long as it doesn't affect "me" today,"
Swamp,
Very few people, especially politicians want to stick their head up and say something about the problem. It just wouldn't be politically correct. They are still looking for the clean end of the turd for a way to pick it up without dirtying their fingers.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:14 AM
Old John, With training or without training, Teachers and instructors should be allowed to have the means to defend themselves and the children under their care against aggression.
-- Posted by BCStoned on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:24 AM
"We were discussing this on the thread that has been deleted."
Wonder what happened there. Usually goes along with the "Thread's" author having gone to 'melt down'. If so... who initiated it?
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:24 AM
-- Posted by BCStoned on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:52 AM
If it became inevitable that schools would have armed good guys in them, I suspect the libs would call for a "Professionalize-Federalize approach like what got us the TSA of today.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 11:21 AM
Old John: That's all the schools need, gate rapers with guns.
-- Posted by BCStoned on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 11:25 AM
-- Posted by Matt Sanders on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:05 PM
The NRA President is correct on one assessment and that is the violent video games and the rap music that promote killing. If we are going to move ahead with a fair and balanced approach with further gun restrictions, then included in that very law should be the video games and rap music that promote violence. This should not be just a one sided issue and just make it about guns only because a major contributing factor to all of these mass shootings by the younger generation is the useless video games and rap music that promote violence which the majority of the producers are in Hollywood making billions off of this worthless trash they are selling to our kids.
-- Posted by swampeastmissouri on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:34 PM
How safe is my kids' school? I think it's fairly safe. At least as safe as it can be without barbed wire fencing, metal detectors and strip searches at the door. Most school shootings are perpetrated by people associated with the school, such as students or in the case of Sandy Hook, a former student whose mother was a volunteer. How do you protect your kids from their friends and classmates?
I think the best thing that schools can do is create a protocol for what teachers and students should do in the event there is a school shooting. Bring back the old duck and cover drills.
-- Posted by DADES on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:40 PM
It is beginning to sound like a money thing , not a personal safety issue
The NRA is a nothing more than a money organization. Another lobbying group in Washington that does not deserve tax exempt status. I left them years ago. It really is funny they are trying to deflect everything off on another industry.
If they support armed guards in every school maybe they can set up a foundation to pay for it. It would sure be a better way to spend their money instead of putting it in some congress mans back pocket.
-- Posted by 3forone on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:57 PM
Maybe the president should look to the drug laws as a guideline for outlawing gun sales amongst private citizens.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 1:20 PM
Regarding the NRA's comments, of coarse they are demanding public funding for their special interest. That is what lobbying groups do.
-- Posted by Simon Jester on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 5:27 PM
Pretty Polly - Dock Boggs
This 1927 song is a classic murder ballad and a pretty **** creepy one at that. A groom-to-be invites his fiancé for a walk into the woods only to kill her and bury her there for some reason; he just kills her and doesn't explain why,
Just an example of music that glorifys killing, 1927 no less.
-- Posted by Reasoning on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 8:03 PM
Gram Parsons did a nice cover of Pretty Polly
-- Posted by Simon Jester on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 9:20 PM
Death has been glorified since the beginning. Recent music is no different. It is an excuse to blame something other than the person who committed the crime.
Knives are deadly, but there is no way the count would be as high. It is so sad.
-- Posted by Reasoning on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 7:07 AM
It's obvious the 'gun-free zones' have been a failure. Gun-rights activists warned as much before they were enacted, but the experiment had to be tried, I guess.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 7:50 AM
"Death has been glorified since the beginning. Recent music is no different. It is an excuse to blame something other than the person who committed the crime."
Are you saying the propagation of gangster rap is no different? The lyrics "They were standing on my turf with their hands in the pockets so I took out my AK and begin to spray" seems a little more violent.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 8:36 AM
Tension
Tension
Tension is all that I know
I got tension out in traffic, I got tension in my office
I got tension, and it's everywhere that I go
After the bad guy killed off all the under-developed characters,
The good guy put a bullet right through his head
The screenwriter stood up and told us all the loose ends had been tied
Justice is irrelevant; violent problems need violent solutions
Cuz in America we like our bad guys dead
It's called box office, baby. It's bigger than the **** Stones.
Tension
Tension
Tension is all that I know
I tension in my health food, tension in my exercise
I got tension, and it's everywhere that I go
Well, they roped off all of my problems and pointed their fingers at addiction
Cuz they know if you're doing the pointing, nobody's looking at you
But you know this war on drugs is funded by the tobacco and alcohol commisions
It's not what drugs you're strung out on they care about as much as whose.
You see, people still love drugs.
They're bigger...hell, they're bigger than Rush Limbaugh
Tension
Tension
Tension, it's all that I know
I got tension in my classroom, I got tension in my courtroom
I got tension and it's everywhere that I go
When rock'n'roll first came around, the preachers all went crazy
But soon that wasn't enough to bring people in the door
So now they jump on any scandal that they can to try and save me
Cuz they know I don't buy that crap about the devil's music anymore
Abortion...that's what scares people these days.
And fear...fear is bigger than Elvis Aaron Presley.
Tension by Todd Snider
-- Posted by riregrist on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 9:00 AM
"Just remember little darling that I love you
And kiss the children for me please before you go
So don't play this crazy game with me no longer
'Cause I won't be able to resist my rage
And the gun that's hangin' on the kitchen wall dear
Is like the road sign pointing straight to satan's cage"
"Kiss the Children" by Ric Gretch
Performed by Country Music Hall of Fame member - Gram Parsons on the album "GP", 1973
-- Posted by Simon Jester on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 9:53 AM
-- Posted by BCStoned on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 10:33 AM
BC,
Don't you trust the military? I don't.
-- Posted by Simon Jester on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 10:44 AM
Make the President of the United States live in a "Gun Free" zone, then I will be the first to endorse it as a good practice. (Not that anyone would care about my endorsement)
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 11:05 AM
Rick V., I don't trust the military at all. I know what they are capable of.
If I had a child in school where there are military roaming the halls with automatics, I would pull that child out in a heartbeat. I would not want their influence around my child. It's not the guns, it is those behind the guns.
-- Posted by BCStoned on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 11:29 AM
Good to see the classic .Rick avatar is back.
-- Posted by Simon Jester on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 2:44 PM
Reasoning. Do you have one on those video games from back then?
From CBS:
"The 13-year-old Arkansas boy accused of gunning down classmates was influenced by the violence portrayed in the rap music he played repeatedly before the shooting, his English teacher told lawmakers Tuesday.
Mitchell Johnson listened to gangsta-rap artists including Tupac Shakur and Bone Thugs 'N Harmony "over and over" in the months leading to the March rampage in Jonesboro, Ark., said teacher Debbie Pelley. Often, he sang along to the lyrics, like the ones about "coming to school and killing all the kids.""
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 5:41 PM
I believe We Regret, they used swords, bayonets and muskets in real "life" games.
An interesting study would be to find out how much tension and aggression, video games ease. What if these electronic games are keeping our youth's rage in tact? And, instead of acting on their rage with real life subjects, they are working it out with pretend games.
I think I read where Mitchell Johnson also took a gun safety course. What is your point?
-- Posted by Reasoning on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 6:21 PM
Reasoning
He was also a member of a choir. I doubt there was a safety course since his parents divorced while he was young and married a felon inmate at a prison she worked at.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 6:38 PM
"For years it was sling-shots , or BB Guns"
And when you shot someone in the a** with it you got taken to the woodshed for a wailing that left whelps, and no one wanted any of that action.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 10:44 PM
-- Posted by .Rick Lately on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 7:02 PM
Rick I have watched one of my nephews grow up with He has grown out of them, but he tells me he would play them all day and when he quit he felt he was still playing it. Take someone that may be deficient in ways that they decide to play it for real.
These kids will play these games for days at a time, alone in their room without any supervision.
Just a thought.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 11:06 PM
"And when you shot someone in the a** with it you got taken to the woodshed for a wailing that left whelps, and no one wanted any of that action."
Yes.... a real life sensitivity course.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 11:54 PM
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 12:03 AM
I think that parents of today's kids were too strict. They are strict to the point of never being comfortable with their kids.
As tough as my father was, he was mild compared to today's parents. When he got onto you, you listened because it was not an everyday occurrence.
When you make too many rules, they are easily ignored. When you make too many rules, children miss life's experiences they need to become adults.
My answer; allow them the experiences and responsibilities to grow.
-- Posted by BCStoned on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 1:39 PM
"I think that parents of today's kids were too strict. They are strict to the point of never being comfortable with their kids."
I agree. Football dads wanting to relive another childhood of sports though their kids push them to the point of them hating everything to do with sports. They also get their kids hurt which will come back to haunt the kids when they get older.
They are not taught manners as we were. Having a teenager call me sir is a rare thing now. To say yea instead of yes mam to mom would land you into a heap of trouble. You sure as heck didn't run around the restaurant playing tag while you parents were waiting for the food. I always want to stick out may foot and trip them when the run by.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 2:41 PM
When I was a young lad, before horseless carriages were invented, schools were quite different. I had young teachers in the third and fourth grades who just didn't care about teaching boys, and they didn't perform very well.
The fifth grade was quite different. I had an elderly teacher who actually loved her students. None of the pretense that exists in today's world. She was very patient with us children. We would do nothing to upset that relationship, and studied hard. I respected her very much.
If you think its hard to teach city kids, try teaching young hillbillies that had a closed mind to anything but hunting and fishing. She captured our interest.
I think that in the modern world, most things becomes pretense. Sometimes that includes family and love. Video games are just an extension of what they know, pretension.
-- Posted by BCStoned on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 3:45 PM
"WASHINGTON -- Marking the first anniversary of the shooting deaths at Columbine High School, President Clinton announced $120 million in new federal grants Saturday to place more police officers in schools and help even the youngest kids cope with their problems.
"In our national struggle against youth violence we must not fail our children; our future depends on it," the president said in his weekly radio address."
________
The Democrats thought it was a good idea, way back then...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 9:46 PM
"WASHINGTON -- Marking the first anniversary of the shooting deaths at Columbine High School, President Clinton announced $120 million in new federal grants Saturday to place more police officers in schools and help even the youngest kids cope with their problems.
"In our national struggle against youth violence we must not fail our children; our future depends on it," the president said in his weekly radio address."
________
The Democrats thought it was a good idea, way back then...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 9:46 PM
They also had the weapons bad that didn't help.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 10:19 PM
Regret wrote: "You sure as heck didn't run around the restaurant playing tag while you parents were waiting for the food."
I can honestly say I can not remember ever going to a restaurant with my parents. When neighbors came to our house or we went to their house to visit, [pretty common in those days] we knew not to talk unless talked to. Mr. or Mrs. was not required unless adults were addressing each other thus.
BC, I can relate to that kind of teacher, not sure about the love but strict and inspiring.
-- Posted by Old John on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 12:03 AM
OJ
Did they have restaurants way back then?
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 8:49 AM
Regrets,
They had Mutt's Place in Advance. Used to stop there on Sunday night (not with my parents) but alas, most often my dollar was gone by then and all I could afford was a 'Pine Float'.
-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 9:08 AM
Regret, I remember being in a tavern with my dad several times starting about when I turned 6, I was the designated driver.
-- Posted by Old John on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 4:05 PM
OJ
They had cars when you were 6?
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 6:53 PM
Regret, Yes, but the car we had always had to be push started. I think that's why there were eight children, to push start the car. Dad had an old truck a bit more dependable to get him to work.
Now that I think of it, [Your teach'm young] I was on a tractor pulling a breaking plow at 5 and I think I remember Voyager driving the first convertible car. Wheels had the first car with a heater and what time of year it was determined which one we greeted with our thumbs up along side the road. :)
-- Posted by Old John on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM
Old John,
That is why we always parked on a slope facing downhill...........just in case. And I was about 8 years old when my dad purchased the second tractor (a 40 John Deere) for my brother and me to drive.
When I told a laborer that I had my own tractor working in the field when I was 8 years old, his reply was.................you must have really been rich!
-- Posted by Robert* on Fri, Jan 4, 2013, at 10:45 PM
-- Posted by Robert* on Fri, Jan 4, 2013, at 10:52 PM
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In the wake of the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn., parents and educators everywhere are wondering about just how safe schools are. Opinions here and everywhere vary, as do the ideas for how to make them safer. The Southeast Missourian is creating this forum thread to encourage our website users to speak freely about their concerns for school safety, and to give their ideas for how to improve it. To leave a comment, you must be registered.
Replies
Matt, We had a thread that was discussing this somewhat. Just curious, where did it go?
I have no children in school and I am not aware of what measures are in place but I think advertising schools as no gun zones is not the answer.
Matt,
I think our schools have no more/no less security than Newtown had. Kids come and go freely and there are no security guards. What happened there could easily happen here.
Have you seen the story of the school district in Texas where they allow conceal/carry by teachers? On it's face it sounds crazy and lunatic - easy to blame those nutty Texans. I listened to the superintendent talk about their policies and it is a very, very well thought detailed plan fashioned a bit around the concept of air marshals on planes.
You never know who has a gun, they are trained, they use ammo that is designed to stop at walls and they must carry their weapons at all times. It might be worth reading or researching. Again, his plan and comments were very well laid out and implemented for the school. They are no longer a gun free zone.
My only concern , what happens if a teacher should flip out and go off the deep end ? -- Posted by .Rick Lately on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:01 PM
A person asked him that in the interview on the radio and his response was "What happens if a teacher should flip out today?". If they flip out, they will bring a gun to school and begin shooting - and no other teachers will have guns. At that school a number of teachers could defend against a teacher flipping out.
His point was that guns don't make people crazy so the odds of a teacher at his school doing that are no greater than the odds of a teacher at a school with guns.
Matt,
I think our schools have no more/no less security than Newtown had. Kids come and go freely and there are no security guards. What happened there could easily happen here.
Have you seen the story of the school district in Texas where they allow conceal/carry by teachers? On it's face it sounds crazy and lunatic - easy to blame those nutty Texans. I listened to the superintendent talk about their policies and it is a very, very well thought detailed plan fashioned a bit around the concept of air marshals on planes.
You never know who has a gun, they are trained, they use ammo that is designed to stop at walls and they must carry their weapons at all times. It might be worth reading or researching. Again, his plan and comments were very well laid out and implemented for the school. They are no longer a gun free zone.
-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 6:25 PM
Are the teachers required to have guns ? If so this sounds like a government mandate. Are the teacher mentally stable enough for this ? If they are carrying guns I would want a mental evaluation to show they will not go off the deep end. What if a child get his or her hands on one accidentally? Sorry but I think we cannot solve gun violence by mandating more guns.
Are the teachers required to carry a gun? NO. It is completely optional *and* anonymous. Only the administration knows who carries and who doesn't.
What if a child gets his or her hands on one accidentally? The teachers are required to carry them at all times. They are never allowed to put them anywhere except on their person.
The guns are never "mandated". This is 100% optional. There was a bill being discussed in Missouri to allow conceal and carry on college campuses. It never came up for a vote or even got out of a committee but I've got to tell you I think about VA Tech shootings and several other college campus shootings. All in "gun free" zones.
ONE of the many stories on this: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/this-tin...
Your only other option is to do everything you can to stop someone from breaking into a school with a gun. I don't believe you can stop that 100% and I believe a teacher today could go beserk and kill students in a "gun free zone". This option didn't sound that bad to me.
One other interesting point about Harrold TX. This program has been in place for a number of years. It's a big deal now and in the press a lot currently because of Newton. This is not something "new". I believe 5 or 6 years they've had conceal and carry in the school district.
"They have all of the "legal" requirements to conceal and hold for no reason ."-- Posted by .Rick Lately on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 8:24 PM
I have a conceal and carry but don't have to teach to have it. If they move on then they'll just be like regular people who don't teach and have a conceal and carry permit.
Matt - this superintendent said he had a ton of calls from school districts and others for interviews and questions - including some in Missouri. He had some very well thought out points. I'd bet if you contacted him you could get a good interview and a great story for us. Just my two cents!
Cages are pretty safe.
I do not support the bill that has been introduced in Missouri which would allow teachers to process firearms while on school property. Teachers are to educate our children not to act as an law enforcement officer. I'm afraid if this law is passed we are opening more doors to violence in our schools and some irate or disturbed student would end up disarming the teacher and then look where we would be. Don't make matters worse than what they already are.
-- Posted by swampeastmissouri on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 9:26 PM
In a fair amount of reading and listening to the news I've learned that all the killing was done in Newtown before the police even arrived. The police cannot protect a school from a mass killing.
In the Columbine, Colorado killings the first thing the two student killers did was lock the security guards outside the building. They knew how to reduce the threat.
So police, security guards and "scanners" don't work. And some of the strictest gun laws in the world (UK, Norway) apparently don't work either as mass gun killings have occurred there.
Solutions anyone?
rick V - WWLD?
The violet world created by drugs, video games, music, and rationalized by Hollywood is the problem. We have seen it for so long we just take it as the norm.
Sorry Violent. Dang
Matt: I think doing away with public schools would be a start.
Private schools would likely provide a degree of protection in order to satisfy customer demand.
Most of the public school shootings were done by young males who were considered geniuses or near genius. Most are on medication to tame a nature that most public teachers are not prepared for. Perhaps proper training for teachers to handle that genius without the need for medication might work.
The minds of geniuses are quite different that of an average child. Einstein would have likely been put on Drugs if attending today's schools.
The problem in most cases are drugs.
Dug,
There is no solution. We were discussing this on the thread that has been deleted. We are a country of 320 million plus. Chances are there are a few freaks. Statistically our schools are safer now than they have been since the early 90's. That trend has continued for 20 plus years.
I do believe that people have the right to defend themselves anywhere. I don't think that teachers should be mandated to carry weapons, but why shouldn't they be allowed to carry if they want to?
I don't like the idea of police officers patroling the halls because the police wants bodies. Private security is preferable, but expensive also. I like the idea of volunteer security, but legal issues and reliability become problems.
Sending your children to smaller private schools or homeschooling are the best options. I know that some people cannot afford private schools, but I also know that a lot of people could afford private school, but would rather spend their money elsewhere and allow the taxpayers to pick up the tab. That's life. I am not a wealthy man, but my wife and I prefer to spend our money sending our kids to private school.
Does anyone talk to their kids anymore?
You know in reality we shouldn't even be having a discussion like this. Back in the day our Schools were the safest place around. What does that tell us now? it tells us how decayed our society has become violence is promoted today by video games, movies and rap music what have we the people done about it basically nothing just let it continue as long as it doesn't affect "me" today, well we cannot continue with that type of thinking the time has come that we must do something about it in a constructive and civil way as one America and not a divided America. The parents also play a very important role in this everything starts at the kitchen table at home a lack of proper parenting at home has also contributed to a lot of these kids going down the wrong track. Start with the type of culture we are living in today, that is where we can start at first and then work toward a solution to the problem.
Mike Kelley, R-Lamar has proposed allowing teachers to conceal carry. The Columbia school board opposes due to infringement on the school board's authority. Some question the lack of training and teachers judgements in defense situations.
Kelley says he will amend the bill to require more weapons training.
Just wonder how many would favor allowing teachers and school personel to conceal carry given they were properly trained and the local school board ok'd it?
"What does that tell us now? it tells us how decayed our society has become violence is promoted today by video games, movies and rap music what have we the people done about it basically nothing just let it continue as long as it doesn't affect "me" today,"
Swamp,
Very few people, especially politicians want to stick their head up and say something about the problem. It just wouldn't be politically correct. They are still looking for the clean end of the turd for a way to pick it up without dirtying their fingers.
Old John, With training or without training, Teachers and instructors should be allowed to have the means to defend themselves and the children under their care against aggression.
"We were discussing this on the thread that has been deleted."
Wonder what happened there. Usually goes along with the "Thread's" author having gone to 'melt down'. If so... who initiated it?
David Kramer (lewrockwell blog) Why don't we hear more about these public shootings? http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/ar...
If it became inevitable that schools would have armed good guys in them, I suspect the libs would call for a "Professionalize-Federalize approach like what got us the TSA of today.
Old John: That's all the schools need, gate rapers with guns.
Israel's method http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/ar...
Old John:
To my knowledge nothing happened to the earlier thread. Is it gone?
Also, wanted to put a link here for everyone concerning the NRA's statement today. Here it is:
http://www.semissourian.com/story/192480...
The NRA President is correct on one assessment and that is the violent video games and the rap music that promote killing. If we are going to move ahead with a fair and balanced approach with further gun restrictions, then included in that very law should be the video games and rap music that promote violence. This should not be just a one sided issue and just make it about guns only because a major contributing factor to all of these mass shootings by the younger generation is the useless video games and rap music that promote violence which the majority of the producers are in Hollywood making billions off of this worthless trash they are selling to our kids.
How safe is my kids' school? I think it's fairly safe. At least as safe as it can be without barbed wire fencing, metal detectors and strip searches at the door. Most school shootings are perpetrated by people associated with the school, such as students or in the case of Sandy Hook, a former student whose mother was a volunteer. How do you protect your kids from their friends and classmates?
I think the best thing that schools can do is create a protocol for what teachers and students should do in the event there is a school shooting. Bring back the old duck and cover drills.
It is beginning to sound like a money thing , not a personal safety issue
The NRA is a nothing more than a money organization. Another lobbying group in Washington that does not deserve tax exempt status. I left them years ago. It really is funny they are trying to deflect everything off on another industry.
If they support armed guards in every school maybe they can set up a foundation to pay for it. It would sure be a better way to spend their money instead of putting it in some congress mans back pocket.
Maybe the president should look to the drug laws as a guideline for outlawing gun sales amongst private citizens.
Regarding the NRA's comments, of coarse they are demanding public funding for their special interest. That is what lobbying groups do.
Pretty Polly - Dock Boggs
This 1927 song is a classic murder ballad and a pretty **** creepy one at that. A groom-to-be invites his fiancé for a walk into the woods only to kill her and bury her there for some reason; he just kills her and doesn't explain why,
Just an example of music that glorifys killing, 1927 no less.
Gram Parsons did a nice cover of Pretty Polly
Death has been glorified since the beginning. Recent music is no different. It is an excuse to blame something other than the person who committed the crime.
Knives are deadly, but there is no way the count would be as high. It is so sad.
It's obvious the 'gun-free zones' have been a failure. Gun-rights activists warned as much before they were enacted, but the experiment had to be tried, I guess.
"Death has been glorified since the beginning. Recent music is no different. It is an excuse to blame something other than the person who committed the crime."
Are you saying the propagation of gangster rap is no different? The lyrics "They were standing on my turf with their hands in the pockets so I took out my AK and begin to spray" seems a little more violent.
Tension
Tension
Tension is all that I know
I got tension out in traffic, I got tension in my office
I got tension, and it's everywhere that I go
After the bad guy killed off all the under-developed characters,
The good guy put a bullet right through his head
The screenwriter stood up and told us all the loose ends had been tied
Justice is irrelevant; violent problems need violent solutions
Cuz in America we like our bad guys dead
It's called box office, baby. It's bigger than the **** Stones.
Tension
Tension
Tension is all that I know
I tension in my health food, tension in my exercise
I got tension, and it's everywhere that I go
Well, they roped off all of my problems and pointed their fingers at addiction
Cuz they know if you're doing the pointing, nobody's looking at you
But you know this war on drugs is funded by the tobacco and alcohol commisions
It's not what drugs you're strung out on they care about as much as whose.
You see, people still love drugs.
They're bigger...hell, they're bigger than Rush Limbaugh
Tension
Tension
Tension, it's all that I know
I got tension in my classroom, I got tension in my courtroom
I got tension and it's everywhere that I go
When rock'n'roll first came around, the preachers all went crazy
But soon that wasn't enough to bring people in the door
So now they jump on any scandal that they can to try and save me
Cuz they know I don't buy that crap about the devil's music anymore
Abortion...that's what scares people these days.
And fear...fear is bigger than Elvis Aaron Presley.
Tension by Todd Snider
"Just remember little darling that I love you
And kiss the children for me please before you go
So don't play this crazy game with me no longer
'Cause I won't be able to resist my rage
And the gun that's hangin' on the kitchen wall dear
Is like the road sign pointing straight to satan's cage"
"Kiss the Children" by Ric Gretch
Performed by Country Music Hall of Fame member - Gram Parsons on the album "GP", 1973
Scratch a liberal http://lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w297....
BC,
Don't you trust the military? I don't.
Make the President of the United States live in a "Gun Free" zone, then I will be the first to endorse it as a good practice. (Not that anyone would care about my endorsement)
Rick V., I don't trust the military at all. I know what they are capable of.
If I had a child in school where there are military roaming the halls with automatics, I would pull that child out in a heartbeat. I would not want their influence around my child. It's not the guns, it is those behind the guns.
Good to see the classic .Rick avatar is back.
http://www.americanrevolution.org/songs/...
From the 1700s...yes death has long been glorified.
Don't you trust the military? I don't.
-- Posted by Rick Vandeven on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 10:44 AM
Sure don't trust the head man.
.........................................................................
Reasoning. Do you have one on those video games from back then?
From CBS:
"The 13-year-old Arkansas boy accused of gunning down classmates was influenced by the violence portrayed in the rap music he played repeatedly before the shooting, his English teacher told lawmakers Tuesday.
Mitchell Johnson listened to gangsta-rap artists including Tupac Shakur and Bone Thugs 'N Harmony "over and over" in the months leading to the March rampage in Jonesboro, Ark., said teacher Debbie Pelley. Often, he sang along to the lyrics, like the ones about "coming to school and killing all the kids.""
I believe We Regret, they used swords, bayonets and muskets in real "life" games.
An interesting study would be to find out how much tension and aggression, video games ease. What if these electronic games are keeping our youth's rage in tact? And, instead of acting on their rage with real life subjects, they are working it out with pretend games.
I think I read where Mitchell Johnson also took a gun safety course. What is your point?
Reasoning
He was also a member of a choir. I doubt there was a safety course since his parents divorced while he was young and married a felon inmate at a prison she worked at.
"For years it was sling-shots , or BB Guns"
And when you shot someone in the a** with it you got taken to the woodshed for a wailing that left whelps, and no one wanted any of that action.
-- Posted by .Rick Lately on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 7:02 PM
Rick I have watched one of my nephews grow up with He has grown out of them, but he tells me he would play them all day and when he quit he felt he was still playing it. Take someone that may be deficient in ways that they decide to play it for real.
These kids will play these games for days at a time, alone in their room without any supervision.
Just a thought.
"And when you shot someone in the a** with it you got taken to the woodshed for a wailing that left whelps, and no one wanted any of that action."
Yes.... a real life sensitivity course.
There weren't may disrespectful kids back then.
.
Now here is today's kids.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=392...
I think that parents of today's kids were too strict. They are strict to the point of never being comfortable with their kids.
As tough as my father was, he was mild compared to today's parents. When he got onto you, you listened because it was not an everyday occurrence.
When you make too many rules, they are easily ignored. When you make too many rules, children miss life's experiences they need to become adults.
My answer; allow them the experiences and responsibilities to grow.
"I think that parents of today's kids were too strict. They are strict to the point of never being comfortable with their kids."
I agree. Football dads wanting to relive another childhood of sports though their kids push them to the point of them hating everything to do with sports. They also get their kids hurt which will come back to haunt the kids when they get older.
They are not taught manners as we were. Having a teenager call me sir is a rare thing now. To say yea instead of yes mam to mom would land you into a heap of trouble. You sure as heck didn't run around the restaurant playing tag while you parents were waiting for the food. I always want to stick out may foot and trip them when the run by.
When I was a young lad, before horseless carriages were invented, schools were quite different. I had young teachers in the third and fourth grades who just didn't care about teaching boys, and they didn't perform very well.
The fifth grade was quite different. I had an elderly teacher who actually loved her students. None of the pretense that exists in today's world. She was very patient with us children. We would do nothing to upset that relationship, and studied hard. I respected her very much.
If you think its hard to teach city kids, try teaching young hillbillies that had a closed mind to anything but hunting and fishing. She captured our interest.
I think that in the modern world, most things becomes pretense. Sometimes that includes family and love. Video games are just an extension of what they know, pretension.
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/16/...
"WASHINGTON -- Marking the first anniversary of the shooting deaths at Columbine High School, President Clinton announced $120 million in new federal grants Saturday to place more police officers in schools and help even the youngest kids cope with their problems.
"In our national struggle against youth violence we must not fail our children; our future depends on it," the president said in his weekly radio address."
________
The Democrats thought it was a good idea, way back then...
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/16/...
"WASHINGTON -- Marking the first anniversary of the shooting deaths at Columbine High School, President Clinton announced $120 million in new federal grants Saturday to place more police officers in schools and help even the youngest kids cope with their problems.
"In our national struggle against youth violence we must not fail our children; our future depends on it," the president said in his weekly radio address."
________
The Democrats thought it was a good idea, way back then...
They also had the weapons bad that didn't help.
Regret wrote: "You sure as heck didn't run around the restaurant playing tag while you parents were waiting for the food."
I can honestly say I can not remember ever going to a restaurant with my parents. When neighbors came to our house or we went to their house to visit, [pretty common in those days] we knew not to talk unless talked to. Mr. or Mrs. was not required unless adults were addressing each other thus.
BC, I can relate to that kind of teacher, not sure about the love but strict and inspiring.
OJ
Did they have restaurants way back then?
Regrets,
They had Mutt's Place in Advance. Used to stop there on Sunday night (not with my parents) but alas, most often my dollar was gone by then and all I could afford was a 'Pine Float'.
Regret, I remember being in a tavern with my dad several times starting about when I turned 6, I was the designated driver.
OJ
They had cars when you were 6?
Regret, Yes, but the car we had always had to be push started. I think that's why there were eight children, to push start the car. Dad had an old truck a bit more dependable to get him to work.
Now that I think of it, [Your teach'm young] I was on a tractor pulling a breaking plow at 5 and I think I remember Voyager driving the first convertible car. Wheels had the first car with a heater and what time of year it was determined which one we greeted with our thumbs up along side the road. :)
Old John,
That is why we always parked on a slope facing downhill...........just in case. And I was about 8 years old when my dad purchased the second tractor (a 40 John Deere) for my brother and me to drive.
When I told a laborer that I had my own tractor working in the field when I was 8 years old, his reply was.................you must have really been rich!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNpH5tx4P...
Have you registered your hammer?
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/01/0...