The Missouri Secession petition failed to garner the needed 25,000 votes by today. So I started a new one and utilized some of the original language found in Missouri's Ordinance of Secession from 1861. New deadline is Jan 9, 2013:
"Whereas the Government of the United States, in the possession and under the control of a sectional party, has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri
Whereas the present Administration of the Government of the United States has utterly ignored the Constitution, subverted the Government as constructed and intended by its makers, and established a despotic and arbitrary power instead thereof: Now, therefore,
We ask the Government of the United States to peacefully allow the State of Missouri to resume the sovereignty granted by compact to the said United States upon admission of said State into the Federal Union, and take its place as a free and independent republic amongst the nations of the earth."
Click the link below to sign the new link and share with your friends.
If I were as unhappy and disgusted with everything this govt does as some of you people, I would just leave. Why keep making yourself miserable? I like it here and plan on staying. If 25,000 wouldn't sign the petition that should tell you something.
-- Posted by left turn on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 6:08 PM
You would like that wouldn't you Lefty.... just leave it all to people like you. Where would your government freebies come from if all of the Producers picked up and left you takers in the lurch?
"If I were as unhappy and disgusted with everything this govt does as some of you people, I would just leave.".
They take by force more than I use by far.
Now for you Lefty's it's a different story. You should be happy as you take the free ride.
Left Turn: We're trying to leave. Why don't YOU PEOPLE let us?
If you are so miserable I suggest you go somewhere else.
Better be glad we're here to support you guys.
What's going to happen when everyone is on the government gravy train and no one is working private sector jobs and paying taxes? Oh yeah the whole fiscal cliff thing right?
THAT is the reason the left doesn't want to allow us to leave.
Where would they be without their conservative whipping boys?
More importantly; where would they be without our Conservative tax dollars paying for their free ride?
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 9:07 PM
And who would you guys be? You know nothing about me or how I am supported Contrary to your ultra conservative view there are producers who are moderate and liberal also. I love to read your constant complaining about things you know little about. Makes me have a good laugh.
3forone...quite an appropriate screen name for you since it takes at least 3 taxes payers to support one liberal.
A little off subject but has anyone else noticed that when someone posts a politically incorrect or anti globalist post , someone magically comments on the "Points instead of Plugs" thread and knocks it down the ladder a little?
*should have read CPU ignitions not plugs
-- Posted by mobushwhacker on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 9:51 PM
Show me your sources to support this. Or are you just blowing smoke as usual. Where do you get I am a liberal ? Or is beyond your backward little ultra conservative tea party thinking to comprehend that there are moderates in this country.
Mobushwhacker, I applaud your activism and conviction. I'm not educated enough to have an intelligent response to your thread and understand your frustration concerning the "see me" childish responses.
That said, I wouldn't start thinking there is some orchestrated effort to minimize the promenience of your thread.
I figure the best the petition will accomplish would be to garner attention of federal polititions to the dissatisfation we of the states have with our relationship with the union. We have to remember the federal polititions are elected by people of the states. Only when the country is properly divided and states choose sides will seccession be taken seriously. IMO
Thank You Old John, upon writing this someone has posted yet another comment in Points instead of CPU thread. How else do you explain something that lies dormant until something out of the box and thought provoking is posted? It is definitely orchestrated.
"Show me your sources to support this. Or are you just blowing smoke as usual. Where do you get I am a liberal ? Or is beyond your backward little ultra conservative tea party thinking to comprehend that there are moderates in this country."
Thank You for proving your point for me...and everyone else.
mobushwhacker: Wouldn't it be much more logical to petition your legislators (both State & Federal) instead of the White House?
Those are the groups that actually have the power to amend the Constitution in a manner that would allow a state to peacefully secede. It seems like you are ignoring the Constitution yourself by petitioning a branch of government that doesn't have the Constitutional authority to permit secession.
The petition is an attention getter utilizing the White House's own resources. A movement if you will.
Secession will have to be a grass roots movement as you have suggested, but everytime a state gets the required 25, 000 signatures it becomes a media story and it sends a message to those state officials to which you are refering to.
Secede, go ahead, you will need your own army, navy and welfare system. Do you need gas money?
No don't think we will need our own welfare system and thanks but we won't need gas money either because we want to leave the Union we're not leaving the state.
You've always been a good friend but I think at the end of the day your excuse is just a cop out. Kind of like the discussion you had with me after 9-11 that you now say we never had. Your very big on ideals but not very enthusiastic about putting them into play. Guess what I'm saying is your scared .
It is shameful people have allowed and embraced the failed societies and economics of the immigrants, legal and illegal and in the Whitehouse. This is no longer a free country and prosperity will continue to decline as long as it is penalized. A Supreme Court Chief Justice said that to tax something is to destroy it. This country has been taxed to death. It is ironic that excessive taxation and taxation without representation was the basis of the revolutionary war. If history repeats itself, get prepared.
It was also the basis of the War Between the States as well. Unfair taxation. Slavery didn't become an issue until Lincoln needed a "moral high ground" to stand on because he was losing the war and his bid for re-election.
A new confederation would benefit ALL of its citizens with equal opportunity for all through economic freedom and constitutional liberties.
Secede, go ahead, you will need your own army, navy and welfare system. Do you need gas money? -- Posted by Dexterite1 on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 6:07 AM
I hate to burst your bubble but Missouri doesn't need a Navy. Get a map. We have an Army (National Guard) in Missouri with locations spread all over the state.
Welfare is what we would get rid of so you'll have to move to Illinois to continue receiving your entitlement checks.
-- Posted by mobushwhacker on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 10:49 AM
I've said the same in the past but not quite as harsh. I've asked "WWLD" - what would a libertarian do? I've done this to try and learn some of the substance of the libertarian thinking and not just the style. I feel BC's method is one of a heavy handed approach to point out that people who claim to be conservative are not. He's campaigning for the libertarian ideology or view by pointing out flaws in others. Just my opinion BC.
I feel it is very easy to be critical and etherial (as I put it a couple of weeks ago). Talking in the clouds is easy, governing is much tougher. WWLD?
Dug, your friend Romeney said we need more naval vessels.
I hate to burst your bubble but Missouri doesn't need a Navy. Get a map. We have an Army (National Guard) in Missouri with locations spread all over the state.
-- Posted by Dug on Tue, Dec 11, 2012
How do you propose to fund this national guard. It is now funded with federal money.
Sorry dug but you will still have poor and disabled so how do you propose taking care of them ?
Also, how about all that land the federal government owns in missouri. Guess what they will still own it. They will also still own all the military bases and national parks.
How about your airports? How do you plan to make them functional? All the federal funds will be pulled and air traffic controllers will be gone. Also, all your departures will now be international requiring customs. How do you plan to pay for that?
How about all the businesses that will pull out of the state? Are you prepared for the hard economic reality of this. Do you really think the AB Inbevs and Procter and gambles of the state are going to pay import duties on all the goods they ship out of your new country. Manufacturing will close faster than you can sign your new constitution.
I could go on all day, but I think you should get the big picture now.
There is absolutely no chance of this happening anyhow. Out of the approximately 6 million in population fewer than 25,000 actually signed the petition.
Dexterite: Romney said the United States needs more naval vessels, this would not concern Missouri if we were to secede.
"Taxes remain quite low at the federal level."- Posted by Spaniard on Tue, Dec 11, 2012
Not for much longer, Buster.
WWLD? Libertarians have no interest in being governed, nor in governing others. Trading daddy tyrant for baby tyrant is not very appealing to me either.
There is an old term that I remember from my Catholic education: the invinsibility of ignorance. At some point it becomes obvious, sometimes painfully so, that the vast majority of humans are not interested in being free. Why would I or BC or any other libertarian (libertarianism taken to it's logical conclusion is anarchism; I use the terms interchangably) waste any more of lives trying to convince other people to live their lives in a manner in which they don't want to?
The good news is that the system in which I find myself being forced to submit to is collapsing in on itself. I don't know how ugly it is going to get. Personally I like my odds. Yes, the mob is big and nasty and has a lot of guns. But the mob is stupid, and totally incapable of rational thought. The "love it or leave" train of thought for example. Or the fact that despite having the largest military in the history of the world, a few guerillas with AK-47's have helped bring this nation to it's knees economically, and morally.
Eventually all of us will have to go through the proverbial five stages of grief, and accept reality. Some of us have went through the process faster than others. BC is the first person that I have met who has accepted the inivitable. He has helped me along the path, and for that I am grateful to my friend and mentor.
Rick I like you and BC I consider you both friends but I also consider you both wrong. You personally told me you would not sign a secession petition because you didn't want to attract the attention of the government. Geez what a concept, the founding fathers would be so proud. They willingly signed their names to a piece of paper to show the entire world what they believed and what they stand for.
I am a member of the National Libertarian party however I disagree with you and James.
Don't mistake his advice for wisdom. He was taught you nothing except to care about nothing.
Unfortunately freedom, prosperity and exceptionalism are not obtained from "nothing".
They are obtained from sacrifice and hard work and the belief in self-government.
With all due respect, and this is only my opinion, someone who believes in "nothing", who is willing to stand by the sidelines safely, until the smoke clears and then embraces the freedom won by others, well that's no different than the welfare recepients and social leaches
that are bringing this country down as we speak.
If you believe in "nothing", you stand for "nothing" and are souless cowards.
Dug, your friend Romeney said we need more naval vessels. -- Posted by Dexterite1 on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 11:12 AM
Romney said Missouri needs more navy vessels? As liberals are proud of posting i "source please".
-- Posted by 3forone on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 11:13 AM
I never signed a petition or said I would. I'm just responding to the far-left notion of a big government controlling everything. Go back and re-comprehend my posts. Maybe you should answer dexterite. Does Missouri need a Navy 3forone? I'll await your response.
As for "federal" lands I believe that Missourians would own 1/50th of Yellowstone, 1/50th of the grand canyon and 1/50th of the massive federal lands in Alaska. Etc. etc. blah blah. Have you calculated the federal taxes that all Missourians pay to the federal government? I think not. Do that and let me know how much it is that would not be going to Obama if secession were to occur.
Dug you are wasting your time with Dexterite just as I am wasting my time with Rick and BC. Liberalism is as much of a religion as anarchism. One side is an ideal in which everyone must believe as they do... the other is an ideal of doing nothing to stop them.
-- Posted by Rick Vandeven on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 11:26 AM
That is why I think people don't take libertarians seriously as an option for election. There IS a government here and has been for over 235 years. It was founded by liberty minded individuals and written into a constitution. It sounds like libertarians do not want to accept the constitution as well.
I understand, clearly, what you're saying and understand why you might feel that way. Personally I don't mind the notion of a federal government designed "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".
National progressive radio and tv talk show host Thomm Hartman interviews my friend Michael Cushman from South Carolina on secession. Unfortunately Thomm, tries to make it about race which it IS NOT:
From the Missouri 10th Amendment Website:
Collectivism by Force: The Liberal Mindset & the Federal Government
Maybe you should answer dexterite. Does Missouri need a Navy 3forone? I'll await your response.
Posted by Dug on Tue, Dec 11, 2012
I don't know why you are so hung up on this, but no we do not need a navy, but I also do not think we need the military machine we have now. The entire armed forces are a bloated overfunded drag on the national debt.
As for "federal" lands I believe that Missourians would own 1/50th of Yellowstone, 1/50th of the grand canyon and 1/50th of the massive federal lands in Alaska. Etc. etc. blah blah.
-- Posted by Dug on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 2:10 PM
You totally could not comprehend my post. I was talking about federal land IN MISSOURI. Maybe you should take reading comprehension lessons.
If Missouri were to secede the federal government would own NO land in our state
-- Posted by mobushwhacker on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 5:50 PM
Please explain this with sources.
Explain with sources...lol. Here's the source, we leave the Union it's Missouri land all of it, we would be our own country. Didn't they teach you to think for yourself in communist school?
I am looking forward to our next smokeshack skull session bro. Have a good one.
Rick so am I. I won't say anything on here that I wouldn't to your face. I still feel you and BC are my friends but I wouldn't be much of a friend if I didn't tell you what I feel is the truth.
Taxes remain quite low at the federal level.
-- Posted by Spaniard on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 9:47
Now that is something I would like to see links on.
Really, You believe the federal government is going to give up huge areas of Mark Twain forest, The Arch grounds and most of all Fort Leonard wood just to name a few. Live in your fantasy world and tell me how it works for you.
-- Posted by 3forone on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 5:44 PM
More liberal math? If Missouri seceded then the US gov't could take the land but not give Missourians their right to other federal lands that our taxpayers bought? You are definitely using a wealth envy calculator!
3forone is using the liberal logic of "you have no right to secede" and is trying to divert the argument by questioning who would own federal land in our state. It's a desperate argument.
Not a desperate argument. Just a question you cannot answer. But that is what you get when you shoot from the hip.
-- Posted by mobushwhacker on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 10:55 PM
The question of there being a "right to secede" is totally irrelevant, immaterial and futile. Remember that your "movement" was unable to get 25,000 signatures previously, which represents less than ½ of 1 percent of the state population. Why should anyone pay attention to such an absurd objective just because a tiny minority favors it.
Furthermore, while you claim that the US "has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri" you fail to mention what those 'violations" are.
just to name a few.
Here you go B.C. Stoned proof positive that secession movement is not made up soley of disgruntle Republicans:
Affordable Care Act
The Supreme Court has considered these and not deemed them unconstitutional. Why should anyone prefer your opinion over that of the Supreme Court and the 99.5% of Missourians that don't agree with you?
There is a supreme court and then there is the Constitution. Just because the Supreme Court rules they are constitutional doesn't mean they are constitutional.
Assuming that 99% of Missourians disagree with me would be a mistake. There is a formula that many politicos use to determine the views of their constituents.
For every one person that signs a petition, or attend a rally or paid event, that formula states that it represents hundreds (sometimes thousands) of others views.
When a distinct people feel that there is no way to address legitemate grievances, they have the God given right to take matters into their own hands.
The founding fathers of this country did just that when they created the Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence.
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
In fact following the War of Yankee Agression the Supreme Court ruled that Jefferson Davis could not be tried for treason, because he did not committ treason. He was elected. (For those who cry where's the sources)
"The government charged Davis with treason against the United States for organizing and arming the 1864 military invasions of Maryland and the District of Columbia during the American Civil War (1861--1865). The defendant demanded a trial as the best forum for proving the constitutionality of secession, and the government requested numerous delays to prepare its case. Although the indictment was finished in March 1868, the Johnson impeachment further delayed the case. The court finally heard preliminary motions in December 1868, when the defense asked for a dismissal claiming that the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution already punished Davis by preventing him from holding public office in the future and that further prosecution and punishment would violate the double jeopardy restriction of the Fifth Amendment. The court divided in its official opinion and certified the question to the United States Supreme Court. Fearing the court would rule in favor of Davis, Johnson released an amnesty proclamation on December 25, 1868, issuing a pardon to all persons who had participated in the rebellion."
So much for the argument that the "Civil War" settled the argument of secession. Johnson granted Davis amnesty because he knew that the U.S. Government could not win a treason conviction.
-- Posted by Spaniard on Wed, Dec 12, 2012, at 11:15 AM
I post here to witness the liberal entertainment complex. Your drive-by postings remind of comic strips. Little snippets of unfounded humor. :-)
BC stated : "Localizing government will not change that faith."
BC is an anarchist, his model government is Somalia, enough said.
Your making all of this up Rick. How can this possibly be? :-)
Obama promised prosperity, low deficits and "free" healthcare for all!
Common asked: "Why should anyone pay attention to such an absurd objective just because a tiny minority favors it."
For a minute I thought I was on a thread about gay marriage or some other tiny minority objective that gets the attention of the MSP on a daily basis.
BC Stoned said: "The problem with mob rule is that a person may be forced into purchasing healthcare insurance or other miscreant actions. You say that it is OK as long as the mob is smaller."
Wow it really is difficult to tell just which "BC" I'm dealing with from comment to comment.
First thing I would like to address to you is the fact you are now LYING and deliberately misleading readers.
I support Obamacare? That's a first for me. That's called a lie, which makes you a LIAR.
Don't take offense, someone like you who believes in nothing, shouldn't be offended.
Let's set the facts straight; Shall we?
When I first published this post it was YOU BC who stated, "I feel that if the Republicans are upset with the way things are now, they shouldn't have embraced the Bush policies. Obama is merely carrying out the Bush policies of a large and intrusive government.
These same policies were OK with a Republican in the White House, but now they are not with a Democrat in the White House?
Party loyalists are the problem, not Obama. Obama is just carrying out what Republicans have approved of in the past."
You are the defender of Obama, not I, but desperate people make desperate arguments.
I posted a video from RT that interviewed those who support secession in NC and they stated clearly they were just as dissatisfied with the Republicans as they are the Democrats.
What did you counter with? A response that would make the most left-leaning counter culture liberal's chest swell up with pride.
You referred to the Founders of this nation as "Slavers". Another desperate argument.
When I called you out as an Anarchist, you respond with a lie that I support Obama Care.
I know exactly who I am and what I stand for. You , on the other hand seem to be struggling with your identity.
I wish you the best of luck in finding it.
Governments are going to do what governments throughout history have always done. I don't understand why this is a surprise.
Not really. People always take the path of least resistance. I don't know that it is really easier to have to apply for this, wait in that line, fill out these papers, take a number, etc, or to try to make an honest living.
Unfortunately, all of those things that folks have to do to live on the dole are prominent features in the lives of people who are simply trying to make an honest living now also.
They may have a point.
Welfare has nothing to do with ensuring people have something to fall back on in the event of hard times, or the "safety net" as it is referred to. It is about pacification, control, and obiedience. Property is a lost concept in this society. You are correct, this is by design.
My daughter who is a freshman in high school was doing some homework on the subject of the Bill of Rights the other day. One question was' "Some people believe that the Second Amendment gives them the right to own _________."
Notice how the question is worded. We are taught that rights are derived from the State. I told her the Second Amendment doesn't give anybody the right to own anything. However, some people do believe that the Second Amendment gives them the right to own firearms. I told her that if she wants to confuse her teacher she should ask him if the Constitution gives people rights. I doubt she will because she wants to make the honor roll. Once again, carrot and stick. This is no different than me submitting to the TSA in order to make my flight, or showing my papers to the MO State Highway Patrol during a "spot check" to avoid being arrested.
Our society is demoralized which is a result of not understanding property.
"Notice how the question is worded. We are taught that rights are derived from the State. I told her the Second Amendment doesn't give anybody the right to own anything. However, some people do believe that the Second Amendment gives them the right to own firearms. I told her that if she wants to confuse her teacher she should ask him if the Constitution gives people rights. I doubt she will because she wants to make the honor roll. Once again, carrot and stick. This is no different than me submitting to the TSA in order to make my flight, or showing my papers to the MO State Highway Patrol during a "spot check" to avoid being arrested."
I think your daughter better not listen to you or she might be elegible for Social Security before she graduates. ;-)
Maybe I better give her some suggestions..... no that probably won't work either, she may be made inelegible for Social Security.
Yes. I have the right to defend myself. Even rats have that right.
Did I just call myself a rat?
But, do I have the right to own a gun?
-- Posted by Rick Vandeven on Thu, Dec 13, 2012, at 4:46 PM
I think it says you may keep and bear arms. If that is so, you better also own it or they might question your right to keep and bear it.
Natural rights would be and is the cornerstone of the secession movement.
TSA protects us again. This time from a 12 year old girl in a wheelchair...
Real American heroes the TSA is.
Revolutions, TSA harrassing 12 year olds in wheel chairs, why would anyone not support secession right now? Texas should go first, then surrounding states should enter into a confederation with Texas. Currency could be backed by oil and gas reserves, which means it would have real value. It would be worth much more than U.S. dollars. We would have a strong economy, more freedom, and not have to pay for U.S. interventions around the world.
Would the new government nationalize those resources for the basis of the new currency?
Good question old John. I would think the new government would not nationalize those resources but would own enough reserves to cover the value of the currency, much like this country used to do with silver and gold.
Questions and answers regarding an independent Texas:
Secession is our only hope from breaking free from the chains of these tyrants:
Mobush, I've heard several use the term "federal law trumps state law' or something like that. I wonder if it would be a more effective measure to start with one of those lesser laws getting the state legislature to refuse compliance to one of these activist federal judge inflictions of egotistic self serving fascism and see what happens.
Would a Janet Reno type assault on a commraderie of wet land owning farmers in defiance of laws preventing use of private property in favor of some funny nosed mouse get any results in state sovereignty recognition?
Just thinking out loud here after a long day.
Just thinking out loud here after a long day.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 11:58 PM
Old John, did the assault on the Branch Davidians in Waco do anything for States Rights? Did the murder of Randy Weaver's wife and family members in Idaho do anything for States Rights?
The only way to win self governance is to take ourselves out of their system. Secede, the start anew.
If graphics were allowed on this site I would post the picture I took of a sign in Alabama, posted along a public road, warning everyone that they were entering an area that was "Beach Mouse" habitat. And that they were a protected species.
I got into a lengthy discussion a few weeks ago on a SE Missourian story on the "grotto sculpin" in Perry County.
Breifly: Many caves in Perry County. A blind fish called the "sculpin" is found there. Some have died recently. The US gov't gets sued by a tree-hugger group out of Arizona to stop the death of the sculpin in Perry County Missouri. Meetings were held in Perryville with federal and state regulators to discuss how to stop COW MANURE, fertilizer and other "toxic" hazards from killing this fish.
They said the grotto sculpin was found nowhere else in the entire world except Perry County. Then I did research.
Sculpins are found all over the world - in caves, blind, seeing, fresh water and salt water. The federal gov't wants to add them to the endangered species list and stop surface farming, industry, etc. from locating in areas where these few hundred fish would be living.
The best part? The "Wild Earth Guardians" are out of Arizona. Where do they get their funding and donations? Over HALF of their funding is from the federal government! So they sue the federal government and the the feds say "It's not us, it's them and a judge says we have to do this".
Of course we have a revenue problem in this country. Not a spending problem...
You might think "Beach House" would be more appropriate..... but no, it was "BEACH MOUSE". For once my fingers did not fail me. :-)
Glad that Arizona group and our federal government wasn't around in the days of dinosaurs. Can you imagine the harm to the blind fish caused by a dino turd?
I keep trying to remember the particulars of that story [I think it was in Kentucky] that a temp bridge was needed while a new highway bridge was constructed. Placement of the temp bridge was moved from the south side to protect some sort of tadpole. They had to remove some trees on the north side. One was later determined to be a 200+ year old witness tree.
Lol Rick, seceding would most certainly stop the Ruby Ridge, Waco and Oklahoma type incidents since it was the federal government who perpetrated these crimes.
Miami-Herald proclaims we have no legal right to secede...what a joke. If secession was treason they would have tried Jefferson Davis for treason, which they did not, because they could not:
Micah Hurd's secession petition was the most popular of those which deluged the White House and generated a great deal of media attention in the wake of Barack Obama's re-election. Nearly 120,000 people have thus far signed Hurd's petition for Texas independence. Some people are not too happy about his actions though and have taken steps to try to intimidate him. David Nakamura has the story for The Washington Post:
[O]ne group was not so supportive: Hurd's superiors in the 4th Regiment of the Texas State Guard, a force of unarmed volunteers who help in cases of natural disaster or other emergencies in the state.
"Any mention of secession had better happen on a civilian venue, as private citizens registering an opinion," chided regiment commander Howard Palmer in an e-mail to colleagues on Nov. 14, five days after Hurd posted his petition. "It's only talk, and rather ignorant talk at that. If you've already done something to call attention to yourself or our regiment in this matter, make it go away
"...has been quiet as a church mouse regarding secession..."
Possibly because it is such an irrational concept that it is not worth anyone's time to even consider it.
If it's not worth anyones time, why are you taking the time to post?
Rick, "I wonder...would the USA Army shoot it's own citizens? How many would refuse and join the secession?"
Go back and take a look at the first secession concerning Missouri. The with us or against us status would not be determined by the individual but by the goverment. Yep, they shot a lot of it's own citizens.
"...the Nation began as individual States and prospered just fine..."
That is completely wrong. The Articles of Confederation were scrapped because they did not work "just fine."
They were making a statement to the British and the rest of the world that we are free men ... ( I know there was alot of things we could discuss on that). They layed the groundwork for what freedom should be. They signed their name because that's what you do when you stand for something.
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