Should Education be destoyed?

Posted by Old John on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 1:28 PM:

Get the Fed gov out of it.


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    It would depend on what you define "education". Even when I was a student (late 70's thru the 80's into the early 90's) there remained a few teachers who believed that education was a preperation for living.

    -- Posted by Simon Jester on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 3:18 PM
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    "Education" has destroyed itself. However, if true education is learning, those who want to learn will do so, sans the "Education Establisyhment."

    -- Posted by voyager on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 3:32 PM
  • The kind doctor could sure use spellcheck. Just might,repeat,might make him a bit more readable.

    -- Posted by dab1969 on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 4:22 PM
  • Old John

    You mean by getting rid of student loans and pell grants. Would that mean that people that didn't come from the right parent can not be successful.

    -- Posted by Some Random Guy on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 1:38 PM

    A college education does not guarantee nor does it determine success.

    -- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 7:16 PM
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    We must remember that intelligence is not enough. Intelligence plus character--that is the goal of true education. The complete education gives one not only power of concentration, but worthy objectives upon which to concentrate. The broad education will, therefore, transmit to one not only the accumulated knowledge of the race but also the accumulated experience of social living.

    Attributed to Martin Luther King, from

    -- Posted by fxpwt on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 7:28 PM
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    IMO 90% of a students success is due to *parenting* - not the education system. I've been involved in education - among other jobs - for many years. I've seen this time and time again. I went to public schools in the poorest county of the state and did very well in life due to the skills my parents taught me and their push, push, push to do well in school.

    Good parenting can *always* overcome a bad teacher. Always. Good teaching can rarely overcome bad parenting. This notion of more money, more teachers, more school busses, more classes, etc. is wrong. Parents have quit parenting. THAT is the problem with education.

    -- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 10:38 PM
  • Public education should be a state and local endeaver. Higher education should be left to the private sector.

    Lots of people that didn't come from the "right parent" have been and can be sucessful.

    -- Posted by Old John on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 11:03 PM
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    Lots of people that didn't come from the "right parent" have been and can be sucessful. -- Posted by Old John on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 11:03 PM

    True. Kids can succeed with poor parenting some of the time. I don't mean the parents have to be super smart - one of mine stopped after HS and the other didn't graduate HS. But that didn't matter. They need to inspire their kids and push them to succeed whatever that is. A good mechanic, a good manager, a good farmer - whatever.

    -- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 11:17 PM
  • Dug, You said: "They need to inspire their kids and push them to succeed whatever that is."

    I agree. I'm just trying to think of a better word than "push".

    -- Posted by Old John on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 12:00 AM
  • BC, A while back I tryed to express my dislike of the use of trained and training thinking learned and taught was a more desired terminology. Not sure if as of yet I understand my own logic but yours helps.

    "Someday, brick and mortar will be a thing of the past." We had a Me'Lange [I think] inspired discussion on this a while back with some suspecting training over education might prevail.

    -- Posted by Old John on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 12:41 AM
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    If the government and their finger in higher education was the only thing that determines who the sucessful people of the world are going to be... how do they account for the great number of people who have been and still are movers and shakers without having had that government help? By Some Random Guy's logic a lot of those people should still be out there hoeing cockleburrs out of corn rows.

    I just woke up and am having a hard time thinking. I think it is time to go to bed.

    -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 12:55 AM
  • "I just woke up and am having a hard time thinking. I think it is time to go to bed."

    Yeah, see if that gets you any sympathy in the honey-do department tomorrow. Be ready to put on your old man pull-ups and get to it early! :)

    I'm past bed time myself.

    -- Posted by Old John on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 1:25 AM
  • "...then be able to do haert surgery."

    Unless you learn how to spell "heart" you won't be able to find it in your medical textbook.

    -- Posted by commonsensematters on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 6:23 AM
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    Obama says we need more teachers. I think we need more 'qualified teachers'... not more teachers.

    The following link should give us all some comfort... not.

    -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 10:16 AM
  • "Education aka learning only ceased when one dies"

    I suspect many of us will learn some important education after death. ;-)

    -- Posted by Old John on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 1:20 PM
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    You mean by getting rid of student loans and pell grants. Would that mean that people that didn't come from the right parent can not be successful.

    -- Posted by Some Random Guy on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 1:38 PM

    If you are talking about the parents who tell their kids that the wealthy man caused all of their problems and should be taken down a notch I would say your right. Teaching your kids to be envious will only hinder them.

    -- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 5:13 PM
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    "I suspect many of us will learn some important education after death. ;-)...Old John

    It would be interesting to hear Spaniard's take on that one!

    -- Posted by voyager on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 9:15 PM
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    I'm curious who on this forum hates the idea of education. I've seen no evidence to support that.

    This seems to be one of the fallacious extensions of a concept, not unlike the idea that those who support lowered taxes don't like taxes at all, and thus oppose funding basic services through taxation.

    I dislike federal control of education, and I think it has been detrimental to the quality of education in this nation. I oppose the idea the manner in which higher education is sold in this country, and the high cost thereof. I oppose the fact that one needs to pay such a high price for higher education to learn things that should have been taught as part of a good basic education.

    -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 6:24 AM
  • Formal Education is unnecessary for my kids, and possibly your kids as well if you are a dedicated parent raising a curious child.

    While Public Education doesn't do my family much direct good, it provides us with s society of people who can show up to work and at least have marginally adequate literacy and basic math skills. Ditch diggers are worthless in the modern world, but somebody needs to operate the heavy equipment that can do the work of 50+ manual ditch diggers and they need to be able to read a plat or blueprint, be able to follow instructions and have a grasp of basic 6th-7th grade geometry skills.

    Having traveled a bit I can say that the smart & motivated people in countries without federally mandated public education systems are every bit as good as our smart & motivated people but there is a very sharp drop off for the general population, for example if you want to construct a building you will have a team of completely uneducated workers who simply don't know how to measure anything, can't read blueprints or instructions, and have all the engineering sense of a American 8 year old building a tree house or box fort. So there is quite a bit of value in having our high school dropouts and those that barely made it through high school at least having gained 5th or 6th grade level skills even if they could never manage to understand basic algebra or proper grammar.

    -- Posted by Nil on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:08 AM
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    "Ditch diggers are worthless in the modern world,..."

    Not really, but they're not worth paying the federally-mandated minimum wage. As a result, we smuggle them from south of the border to dig the necessary ditches. By using 'undocumented aliens' to do the thankless tasks such as digging our ditches and so forth, Americans enjoys the pretense that our workforce is better paid and better cared for, and provided with all the government-mandated goodies that benefit those who enjoy the benefits of documented labour.

    The underground economy thrives, even as our own publicly-educated youth wallow about jobless, unwilling to do the jobs that so many see as 'useless'. Occupiers living in tents decry the loss of jobs, while the underground economy occupies tents moving across the nation picking seasonal fruits and engaging in the day-labour that far too Americans now see as beneath their dignity to do.

    -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:26 AM
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    What I'm trying to say is that a large part of our young generation is being deprived of one of the most important parts of their education - the exposure to hard toil in the so-called 'school of hard knocks'.

    Nearly every person of my generation was educated there - we toiled in the heat of the Summer Sun, cutting weeds in the bean and cotton fields, mowing lawns, and (yes) digging ditches. We learned, by doing what we realized we didn't want to do for a living, the value of educating ourselves so that we would be better suited to do something better. Much of today's youth lacks that motivation.

    True, some of those jobs have been lost to automation, but many are still there, they are simply a part of the 'underground economy'. Weeds still have to be cut, lawns still have to be mowed, ditches still have to be dug. You can excavated a ditch with a backhoe, but there is usually still a man with a shovel to shape and smooth it. Yes, you generally have to be able to read a blueprint to build a house, but you still need strongbacks and roofers to do many of the tasks associated therewith, tasks which require more brawn than brain, and can accomplished as easily by someone who speaks no English as by a person with a high school diploma or a trade school certificate. Many of my generation did those jobs before completing school, not afterwards.

    -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:48 AM
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    "In September, 238,000 American jobs went unfilled, despite employers' best efforts. At the same time, unemployment was at 7.8 percent nationally. And believe it or not, this was no statistical oddity.

    "The manufacturing sector has long had trouble finding skilled applicants for its jobs. Around 48 percent of manufacturing companies are looking to hire, according to the most recent report from ThomasNet, a company that helps connect producers and suppliers. But 67 percent of manufacturing companies see a moderate to severe shortage of skilled workers, and last year, as many as 600,000 jobs went unfilled, according to a report from Deloitte and the Manufacturing Institute.

    "This mismatch embodies the best and worst of American culture. On the one hand, American manufacturers have bested their international competition, becoming even more efficient after their recent struggles. On the other, there's been a cultural shift that denigrates the value of manufacturing work, instead pushing young people into ever more impractical fields of study.

    "The manufacturing sector's triumph is pretty remarkable. The U.S. is the world's largest manufacturer, contributing 18.2 percent of the total value added in worldwide production. (China, despite its abundance of cheap labor, comes in second at 17.6 percent.) Though other sectors are panicking about a fiscal cliff and putting expansion on hold, American manufacturing is plowing ahead. Ninety percent of manufacturers told ThomasNet they're optimistic about the future, and 75 percent planned to expand their operations this year.

    "The manufacturing sector is also almost uniquely good to its employees. "No longer dirty, dark, or dangerous" has become an industry catchphrase. Careers in manufacturing are not, contrary to popular belief, merely monotonous assembly-line work; today, workers have to be good at problem solving, abstract thinking, and technology. And the pay is good. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that a manufacturing worker makes an average of $23.97 on hour as of October 2012. Manufacturing jobs are also more likely to come with good benefits than jobs in other industries, the Brookings Institute has reported. Furthermore, the manufacturing sector offers high-pay positions for people with low educational attainment; one manufacturing firm told National Review Online that it would pay a $54,000 starting salary to a high-school graduate who could competently repair and maintain machinery.

    "These job perks are partly caused by demand. Older manufacturing workers are retiring fast, and the work has become more high-tech, says Thomas Holdsworth, a spokesman for SkillsUSA, an organization that provides training for high school and college students. SkillsUSA works closely with the manufacturing sector, connecting it with prospective workers.

    "We hear about skill shortage and skill gap," Holdsworth explained. "Manufacturers say . . . 'We have a shortage of workers, a shortage of people coming into our profession.'"

    "The skilled-worker shortage is an education problem. High schools have cut their shop classes, and students are pushed to attain at least a four-year college degree, no matter the major, says Linda Rigano, spokesperson for ThomasNet.

    "In high schools, "there's been such a focus on -- and this is going to sound terrible -- kids going to school," she said. "Not every kid is meant to go to college." Meanwhile, manufacturing companies "are paying six figures. You've got all these kids who are coming out of college, and they can't find a job. It's heartbreaking."

    "Young people are told that a four-year college degree is a minimal requirement for career success, but the numbers simply don't bear this out."

    -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:57 AM
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    Do not know your Father's level of formal education. But I was told that he was the best man they ever saw at being able to read a square and be able to use it accurately on a construction project. And that was not the limits of his knowledge.

    More of those kinds of people are what we need in this world as opposed to kids with a fine arts degree and no job prospects.

    -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 2:12 PM
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    Whatever any of us may think, a formal education is necessary for a significant number of occupations. Any decent job I ever had required a degree to even get in for an interview.

    Whether that should be the case is another matter.

    -- Posted by 356 on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 4:09 PM
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    Wheels, Dad had a fourth grade education. My sister and brother, with their degrees were impressed with his knowledge.

    -- Posted by BCStoned on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 3:06 PM

    Same with my grandfather. 5th grade and died a fairly wealthy businessman owning two stores and a farm. Bad thing was when he died at 39 his wife wasn't such a good manager and pretty well used everything to live out her life. When the 10 kids slit their inheritance they each had about enough for a used car.

    -- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 5:22 PM
  • My young friend in college is learning mathmatics my dad learned with an eighth grade education and I didn't untill high school.

    In todays world one doesn't even need to know how to square forms for a concrete slab. A construction calculator does that and then tells how many yards to order.

    -- Posted by Old John on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 9:12 PM
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    That is why the cashiers cant count change in their head anymore. Too many machines.

    -- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 9:23 PM
  • I understand what is being said about not being able to find qualified workers and what is being said about willingness to pay qualified workers well. However I think the norm is more to taylor jobs in such a way that little skill or talent is needed. That way if one part time worker moves on, they are a dime a dozen and easy to replace. Thus may be one part in the origin of my dislike of the word "trained" when describing a job holder.

    I think if you take a look at some of the most recent successful new companies you will see that the hired help that got it done was of less formal education and more of the down to earth educated with the experience of 'digging the ditches' type.

    -- Posted by Old John on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 10:05 PM
  • "Old fashion common sense trumps a Masters Degree..."

    They are not mutually exclusive. Many people have both common sense and a master's degree.

    -- Posted by commonsensematters on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 7:22 AM
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    Advanced degrees go something like this.

    When you graduate from high school you *should* have a good set of GENERAL skills (reading, writing, arithmetic) to work in the world. Emphasis on the word "should".

    When you graduate from college you have usually specialized and should be able to perform a job that requires some specialization - teaching, finance, sales, marketing - whatever.

    When you get a "masters" degree you are narrowing your education and focusing even more on your profession.

    A PhD is the ultimate focus and narrowing in a field. You are *supposed* to be excellent and an authority on something - but it's very focused and very narrow.

    People with PhD's or "doctorates" are very smart in a very narrow area. Some people think because you're a professor your a genius and that may not be true. A genius might have be someone that quit school in 7th grade.

    -- Posted by Dug on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 9:20 AM
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    Your level of expertise on anything is highly dependant on you and your willingness to keep learning, no matter your level of formal education in my opinion.

    Too many 'narrowly' educated people cannot see the big picture.

    -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 10:08 AM
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    -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 10:08 AM

    Very true. A PhD in biochemical science and neurology probably couldn't change out a transmission, grow a garden or start a tractor. But he/she can do brain surgery.

    -- Posted by Dug on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 10:30 AM
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    I have a very good friend who is now retired for 15 years. He has a PHD and proudly carries the title of Doctor. He was a Methodist Minister by trade. But he could lay carpet, floor tile, do most of his car chores himself, finish drywall, trade stocks, buy and sell gold, diamonds and jewelry. And was very up to the minute on the political situation in this country and his native country of Canada. And that is a partial list. He is the most 'rounded' individual I have ever known. But you cannot sit down for a cup of coffee with him without it becoming complicated. He is definitely an exception, but I think maybe his determination to excel in a broad number of things is that he grew up poor, his Father was a gardner for the town's park system I think most of his life. I doubt the job paid exceptionally well.

    -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 12:57 PM
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    "But you cannot sit down for a cup of coffee with him without it becoming complicated."

    Have a Doctor Brother In Law that is the same way. If it isn't complicated he will make it that way so he can fix it.

    -- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 5:57 PM
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    Shh. You will anger the education envy crowd. -- Posted by Spaniard on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 8:08 AM

    If there were education envy on this thread - like your own wealth envy - we would ask your president to go after those with education and take their hard earned accomplishments away. Then we'd demand your president print PhD certificates for all of us so we are all "the same" or "spread the wealth of knowledge". Then we'd go to bed at night feeling all fuzzy and warm knowing the government made us smart by printing some paper and handing it to us.

    That's the democrat way Spaniard. And you voted for it.

    -- Posted by Dug on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 8:44 AM
  • If the three coefficients of the squared term, x term and numeric term are A, B and C.

    Then x equals minus B, plus or minus the square root of the quantity B squared minus 4 times A times C. Then divide the totals by 2A.

    The plus gives one solution and the minus gives the second.

    -- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 10:56 PM
  • Common, Thanks, I'm taking that newly learned info out in the morning with me to get one of those 11:00 am -1:00 pm jobs with a two hour lunch break and full benefits! :)

    -- Posted by Old John on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 11:02 PM
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    With the delay in answering Rick's question... it sounds as if Common has been a busy boy this afternoon and evening digging up that information.

    -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 11:07 PM
  • I started to say: "Common , I knew Joe Smart, he was a friend of mine. Common, you're no Joe Smart."

    But of course that would be rude and I don't want to be rude at this hour.

    It's a more serious time.

    -- Posted by Old John on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 11:14 PM
  • me thinks a lot of blue eyed education envy going on

    encourage your children to aspire for a better life means encouraging your children to do well in school. it does not mean you encourage them to be burger flippers or ditch diggers

    -- Posted by survivalist on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 4:42 AM
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    Digging ditches and flipping burgers is not discouraging of education. In fact, it tends to foster in most children a desire to do better in school, in order to rise above such labour. I said as much earlier.

    I've dug ditches, but not flipped burgers (though I have made pizzas, voluntarily). It is because I did such things that I learned that such was not my long-term goal.

    Many of my peers spent their summers digging ditches and their evenings flipping burgers while furthering their education. It was, to be sure, an important part of their education process.

    -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 6:50 AM

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