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Missouri Secession Petition Circulates
Posted by dchannes on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 12:33 PM:

Missouri Secession Petition Circulates On White House Website

"ST. LOUIS (KMOX) - A petition on the White House's website asks the Obama administration to "peacefully" allow Missouri to secede from the union.

"We petition the Obama administration to Peacefully grant the State of Missouri to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government," the petition reads." http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/11/13/m...



Replies

If Texas goes first and wins , the wild fire will spread north with the winds of change...

-- Posted by .Rick. on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 1:12 PM

This may be one of the moves anticipated by big brother. I'd be willing to bet a contingency plan is already in place to quell any uprising that might develop.

-- Posted by dchannes on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 1:30 PM

Traitors.

If people don't like this country, flights leave on the hour.

-- Posted by Rational.Thought on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 1:51 PM

They made a petition on the White House Website? What a joke. The secessionist need to take a look at all the good registering a petition on the White House website and getting tens of thousands of signers did for the Marijuana legalization crowd. All the most popular petitions in the history of that website are pot related. The secessionist petitions won't get half the votes, but might get enough to get their own similar form letter non-response.

-- Posted by Nil on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 2:54 PM

"...to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Guess what the American people did on November 6th. They voted for the government of their choice.

And if you check out the link, you can see that they already have a new flag. Crazy.

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 3:31 PM

The states should have the right to secede.

However, just because a group has gathered sufficient signatures to get a petition on the ballot does not mean the ballot measure will succeed.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 3:34 PM

"The states should have the right to secede."

Whether they should or not is irrelevant. They don't. Especially not for such a phony, comical and farcical reason... "We don't like who the people elected..."

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 3:54 PM

"Whether they should or not is irrelevant. They don't."

It's hardly irrelevant, since it is being discussed. Texas, it appears, may vote on it. That is hardly the stuff of irrelevance.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:17 PM

Traitors.

If people don't like this country, flights leave on the hour.

-- Posted by Rational.Thought on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 1:51 PM

I've got an idea, you can be a 'Redcoat' and the freedom lovers like me will be the 'Bluecoats'. You can save the flying for yourself.

-- Posted by dchannes on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:25 PM

"It's hardly irrelevant, since it is being discussed."

Does that make each topic on Speak Out "relevant" because it is being "discussed."`

If Texas is going to vote on it, so what?

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:30 PM

"IMHO Any one who signs one of these petitions is a spoiled brats aka sore loser who needs to grow up!"

You assume to know why people choose to sign the petition. There are people who have supported secession for decades, but have never had the opportunity to sign a petition to support it, or at least to sign a petition that garnered any publicity.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:40 PM

"Does that make each topic on Speak Out "relevant" because it is being "discussed."

There is a world outside of Speak Out. I was referrring to the discussion of it in the news, on the streets, and by those signing and debating the petitions. Also, apparently by the White House, since it is reported that Mr. Obama will address the issue.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:42 PM

I stand by my statement.

If you wish to succeed you are a traitor. If you hate my country so much, leave. I will not stop you.

"If my party doesn't win, we should succeed." Seriously, grow up people. Why defend these traitors. The only difference in this country between today and Nov. 5th is your guy didn't get elected.

-- Posted by Rational.Thought on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:54 PM

"If you hate my country so much, leave. I will not stop you."

That's what they are proposing to do. They just want to take their property with them.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:56 PM

RT,

I don't hate America. I hate it's government. I hate tyranny and fraud in general. If it had been up to people like you, we would be flying the Union Jack on our flagpoles here today. I guess you're just to dense to understand your own folly.

-- Posted by dchannes on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 5:12 PM

Succession can work, it just didn't work out well in 1776.

My ancestors made a mistake, they were led by miscreants. Lives were lost, and nothing gained other than for the miscreants. They built their wealth and power on the lives of others.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 5:50 PM

"If my party doesn't win, we should succeed." Seriously, grow up people. Why defend these traitors. The only difference in this country between today and Nov. 5th is your guy didn't get elected.

-- Posted by Rational.Thought on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 4:54 PM

Its not so much party as the person elected. If he is so good why is there so much division. A leader can bring people together by negotiating but instead Obama acts like a union and demands things his way or else. Now he is wanting almost twice as much in taxes as he said before the election.

BTW I'm not leaving. I wanna see you guys pay for Obamanism while I take an almost free ride and relax. I have a good investment counselor. Best money I have spent so far. I should have done this 4 years ago.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 5:51 PM

I never said I liked Romney, but I voted for him. Why? Because what freedom loving people in America were trying to do by voting for Romney was slow down the complete conversion to Socialistic Communism. They take from those who have, and give to others. Those in leadership get the lion's share.

Obama is the fast track choice and Romney was the slower track choice. Period. But most people don't know what Socialism or Communism is. Sad.

-- Posted by dchannes on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 6:11 PM

Notice how the stock market replied to Obama's press conference today?

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 6:23 PM

DC,

Do you really think we are headed down the path of socialism? The corporations run this country, and I don't see CEO's trading their salaries for a federal check. Big businesses don't want a smaller govt, they want a govt that they can control. We don't produce anything in this country, so I don't see how the central govt can control production.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 6:27 PM

Ron Paul's "Farewell to Congress" http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/ar...

-- Posted by BCStoned on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 6:50 PM

I do agree with some of the posters on here regarding the effectivness of an online petition. That doesn't sound like a very serious way to secede. It does bring an awareness to the issue. Perhaps more people will educate themselves, and a real secession movement will result. Asking permission is not the way.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 6:56 PM

"Founding fathers did not feel represented, nor was the mother county a democracy."

As I noted earlier, the residents of some states are feeling they are not represented by the current electoral system. The past four elections have been seen Florida or Ohio as the 'key' to deciding the outcome. Many states see themselves as being marginalized.

The candidates don't even bother to campaign in some of them, they being written off to one side or the other, or considered irrelevant in the overall campaign scheme.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 7:05 PM

Me'Lange, Another way of looking at our founding fathers. They were not against rule by Britain, they just wanted to be the rulers. They were not against government, they wanted to be government.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 7:24 PM

BC, Another way of looking at our founding fathers in my opinion is they were not against rule by Britain so much as they just wanted to rule themselves.

Many, not all, were firmly established and felt supressed by the British in the rewards of their merchant class.

Regardless of the reasons, do you think a better outcome concerning the founding of a nation could have evolved?

-- Posted by Old John on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 10:18 PM

Old John, Yes, one founded on freedom and its rewards of production. Many of those who moved West, wanted to stay ahead of the newly formed empire. The empire caught up with them and the native Americans. The rest is history.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 10:34 PM

Old John, Those working the land seldom paid over 2% to the British in taxes. That all changed under the new regime.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 10:37 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't John Hancock a mega-importer who was angry about some tariff? Several of the signers of the D of I were wealthy businessmen who were active participants in the mercantilism of the time, and felt shafted by the British tariffs and duties. Perhaps BC or SH can shed some light. Regardless, it wasn't all about "freedom" like we were taught.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 5:35 AM

"They just want to take their property with them."

Since I live in Missouri, and do not want to "secede," what gives them the right to take my property with them?

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 6:24 AM

The reasons for secession from the British crown were well laid-out in the Declaration of Independence. They are:

"To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

"He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

"He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

"He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

"He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

"He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

"He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

"He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

"He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

"He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

"He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

"He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

"For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

"For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

"For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

"For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

"For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

"For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

"For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

"For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

"For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

"He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

"He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

"He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

"He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

"He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

"In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."

It was a bit more than just 'taxation without reprentation', though that's the sound bite that stuck in people's imagination.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 6:29 AM

SH, Things haven't changed much.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 7:26 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL-a-r7i...

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:39 AM

SH, Exactly, money has been taken from producers forcibly and given to someone who by birthright believes he is entitled to it.

He will surely go into government employment or banking.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:57 AM

There appear to be 18 "He" statements referring to King George, 9 "For" statements that are irrelevant (for example... transporting us beyond seas, quartering large numbers of troops among us, cutting off our trade) and 1 "In" statement.

By stretching your imagination tremendously, you could apply a couple, but still remain inconsequential. By the way, keep in mind that the document was written to a monarchy.

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 9:13 AM

commonsensematters, Rule by millions doesn't change a thing.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 10:11 AM

Rule by millions doesn't change a thing.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 10:11 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure it does. When ruled by the mob, one votes before being ordered what to do. In a monarchy or a dictatorship, you don't have to waste your time voting.

Actually, there are some pretty logical arguments in favor of monarchy rule.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 11:27 AM

Since I live in Missouri, and do not want to "secede," what gives them the right to take my property with them?

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 6:24 AM

I didn't know that you were an anarchist CSM.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 11:29 AM

"Since I live in Missouri, and do not want to "secede," what gives them the right to take my property with them?"

The same thing that gave the Founding Fathers the right to take those loyal to the crown's property with them, I reckon.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 11:37 AM

Seems to me 11 states seceded from the Union before and during the Civil War. We all know how well that turned out. I do not agree with this petition. However, I do believe it is time the Central Governmnet end its strangle hold on the States and give them back their sovereignty. That loss was a direct result of those 11 States desire to secede. JMO

-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:00 PM

Wheels, How about back to the Articles of Confederation?

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:01 PM

"There is now a petition to deport those who sign secession petitions."

So much for the right to petition for redress of grievances, eh?

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:09 PM

There is now a petition to deport those who sign secession petitions. -- Posted by Spaniard on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:03 PM

Dirt doesn't vote.

-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:11 PM

Spaniard, There are people in America that no longer believe in the right to petition government?

I bet they miss their old Soviet State.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:12 PM

Spaniard, You have corrected me.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:19 PM

"That would be the height of irony: the deportation petition is using the petition process."

It uses the petition process against those who use the petition process. Ergo, it is the height of irony, not questioning it.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:23 PM

Again, people getting excited over a nothing story. These petitions were signed in 2008 and 2004 and will be signed for the next election regardless of who is elected. It is a pointless protest. It's a fun story for the conservatives to point to in order to show how terrible everything in the world is now.

-- Posted by jswonger on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:28 PM

I think the crybabies who wanna quit on the United State of America because they didn't get their way in one election should just leave the country. They are not good americans. -- Posted by Spaniard on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:16 PM

And that would include yourself. You have been crying about "it's Bush's fault" on here for the past 4 years - 8 years after Bush's last "re-election". Yet you think it funny to disparage those that don't like the current president 8 days have his last re-election?

-- Posted by Dug on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:35 PM

Rick V, I think Hancock was an importer of French wine among other things. Although taxes were low on the colonists, as you alluded to, tarrifs on imports and restrictions on exports played a large part in the dissatistaction of the arrangement.

-- Posted by Old John on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 12:38 PM

Wheels, You do realize, that as an anarcho-capitalist, I consider them welfare cases.

I think that it would be in the interest of producers of this great nation to provide them a year round hotel room in France as a benefit, as long as they stayed there.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 1:41 PM

Regret, The market fluctuations will continue till the Budget Control Act of 2011 is dealt with. (Which, has very little to do with the President and more to do with Congress.)

-- Posted by Me'Lange on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 5:49 AM

BS

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 2:40 PM

It sure is easy to tell by the posts who worked hard and were able to buy a few things and have a nest egg compared to the ones that want to TAKE (steal) what they didn't earn.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 2:46 PM

You know one of the fiscal cliff plans by Democrats is another stimulus spending since (they say) the first one did so well.

Gotta go. I have to feed some old white men at the veterans home for Thanksgiving today.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 3:05 PM

http://www.navajocodetalkers.org/the_mus...

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 3:18 PM

"During WWII , Apache was used on radio transmissions to USA Fleets in and around Japan so the Japanese could not understand what was being transmitted."

They were Navaho, and they are Veterans.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 3:19 PM

One of the Flag-Raisers at Iwo Jima was an American Indian, Ira Hayes. He had a troubled life after becoming a national celebrity.

His story is told in the 1961 film 'The Outsider'. Tony Curtis portrayed Mr. Hayes in the film.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 3:22 PM

"Have you heard a Nava'jo and Apac'he speak?"

Only in film.

There is a film about the Code-Talkers, which I believe was named 'Code-Talkers', starring Nicholas Cage. It was a fairly good film about them.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 3:36 PM

Ira Hayes actually appeared in the John Wayne film 'The Sands of Iwo Jima', along with two other flag raisers.

After the war, he was arrested for public drunkenness 52 times. He was reportedly despondent over the deaths of men he referred to as 'better than him' who did not return home. He drank himself to death in 1955.

It was said by someone that he died in the war, but didn't know it.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 3:42 PM

Do you really think we are headed down the path of socialism? The corporations run this country, and I don't see CEO's trading their salaries for a federal check. Big businesses don't want a smaller govt, they want a govt that they can control. We don't produce anything in this country, so I don't see how the central govt can control production.

-- Posted by Rick Vandeven on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 6:27 PM

Rick V,

I don't just think we're headed down the path. I think we're already there in many ways. For example, the "social" programs we have and socialistic views taught in public schools. Judges making weird judgements...like awarding somebody millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on themselves.

The fact that Big Businesses control government to a large degree is another topic altogether. Not sure where you're going with that.

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 5:03 PM

Rick V., I don't think we are going down a path to socialism. I do think that the welfare/warfare system in place looks a lot like Bonito Mussolini fascism.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 5:11 PM

DC,

The reason I ask is because I think there is a lot of misinformation getting passed aroud as to what "socialism" is. Socialism is a political system in which the central govt controls all the production in a country. That is not happening, and I don't see it happening. Socialism has nothing to do with frivilous lawsuits. If we are a socialist nation, a person who spilled hot coffee on themselves would have to sue the government because that would be who produced the coffee, not McDonald's or Starbucks etc.

I know that Republicans like to pin the "socialism" bogieman on Democrats. Actually we are much closer to a facsist system where the State and business collude with each other for mutual benefit, something both duopoly parties are guilty of supporting.

In a socialist country there would be no Big Business to control government.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 5:32 PM

Rick,

If you don't see the whacked out control of production by the feds in this country, I don't know what to tell you. Especially food production. You want to talk about General Motors to me? USDA is in business with Monsanto. What's that? Capitalism? What label would you put on it? Maybe we're mincing words. I don't know.

BC,

I think there are elements of fascism as well. Liberal and conservative or neo-conservative, as you say.

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 6:57 PM

Also, my ideology slants toward Libertarianism. There are a couple of issues my religious beliefs get in the way of. Other than that, we're probably on the same pages.

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 7:07 PM

From my experience in the financial world, those who have don't have to brag about it. Just sayin'

-- Posted by Me'Lange on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 4:09 PM

Who's bragging? Did your elders not tell you to keep a rainy day fund. I'm not rich by all means. It would be wheels that has the title "moneybags". :-)

I will still be working some according to my wife. I'm just not a employer any longer after 2012. I learned one thing. It takes time to quit unless you want to give it to Obama in taxes which isn't happening.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 7:10 PM

DC,

Who benefits from "socialistic" programs like food stamps, or Obamacare? How about regulations, tariffs, and war? Big business is alive and well in this country thanks to their collusion with the central government. That would not be the case in a socialistic system. You made the connection, and it is not socialism.

I don't know why your religious beliefs would get in the way of you embracing libertarianism. I am a Catholic, and I have no conflicts at all. Actually, Catholism and libertarianism are completely compatable.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 7:37 PM

BTW Rick.

Congrats on the 10,544 votes.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 7:40 PM

Rick V,

The LP Platform says:

"1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration."

I disagree because the unborn child has the right to life. And who is the author of life? YHWH.

Matthew 18:

"5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"

I can not say that allowing abortion is okay. This is my major problem with the LP. Other than that I think I totally agree. I know there is a faction of Libertarians that are against abortion, but that is contrary to the platform.

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 7:56 PM

DC,

So you want to force your religious beliefs on other people? You're right. That isn't libertarian.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:16 PM

Rick V,

Where do we get The Law from?

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:26 PM

Rick V,

Where does a human being walking around get the right to murder another human being who is not walking around? How do you back that up in The Law?

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:28 PM

Rick V. I was watching Men Who Built America on one of the channels the other day. The program focused on Carnegie, John Rockefeller, JP Morgan. The program pointed out that those three bought the Presidency of McKinley. They considered him friendly to business.

The story of competition and how that history got it wrong.

They picked T Roosevelt for vice president because they considered him an enemy, and the vice-president was a safe position for him. When McKinley got killed, Roosevelt became president and proved that he was hostel to business. The story pictured him as incorruptible which was far from the truth. The House of Morgan filled almost every important post in his administration and hammered JD Rockefeller with the Sherman anti-trust Act. Morgan won an important battle against Rockefeller.

Bankers and big oil are still in the drivers seat.

Government can be bought if the price is right. But historians ignore that. Fascism has been around a while with media approval.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:33 PM

BC,

I was talking about the Libertarian Party position...not history. I agree with what you said above. But, Socialism and Fascism are two sides of the same coin. Right?

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:49 PM

BC

That is a very good show.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:54 PM

dchannes, Yes. Mussolini was a socialist before he became a fascist. He describes fascism one step beyond socialism in the corporate state.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:56 PM

Regret, I liked the show.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:57 PM

Look, the largest part of retaining freedom, is having the decency and morality to defend those who cannot defend themselves. If a society fails in protecting the innocent,and those without 'personal' power, that society is doomed to fail. You cannot be 'free' while destroying the innocent. You certainly cannot be innocent while destroying the innocent or condoning it by saying it's one personal decision. At the risk of sounding cliche, it's not a choice, it is a child. The choice is made by the One who creates life.

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:58 PM

Regret, you're just picking because I quoted scripture, huh?

-- Posted by dchannes on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 9:00 PM

DC :-)

BC

I never knew the history of Eads Bridge until I watched it.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 9:16 PM

Wheels

:-) Sorry about that.

I just hate envy and always have since I was a kid.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 9:47 PM

Considering fascism and socialism in regards to capitolism, I think the lines became blurred when government started subsidising such as railroads and public utilities.

Today within the auto industry and many energy concerns, facsism fits closest in my opinion. Privately owned, government controlled.

-- Posted by Old John on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 11:18 PM

I don't really consider this forum as "the public". It's anonymous and isn't really revealing any personal information if you don't know the person.

-- Posted by Dug on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 10:32 AM

Spaniard, Are "good Americans" only those that agree with progressive government and accept rules without question?

-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 1:07 PM

-- Posted by Me'Lange on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 4:56 AM

Yep. That's me.

Just because I invest in the markets doesn't mean I have cut a fat hog. I started my daughter out with $200 on a Trade King account and told her to pick out things she likes that she thinks will do good. It is now about $70.

My stock trading is more or less a hobby. Just because I say I invest in the medical field doesn't mean I am doing $20k trades.

But I think I may sell about 50 shares of my BRK-A and buy a RV. :)

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 6:41 PM

Spaniard, Those people that sign the petition are not quitting America. What they are quitting is what they feel is an abusive system of government. They are peacefully separating themselves from that abuse.

If there is crying, it is those who feel betrayed by their signing the petition. They consider themselves in a fraternity with the abusers.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 7:24 PM

Wheels

I know. At the time the work situations was still unknown so I had to let it go. I just wanna go south for the winter.

Don't do this! One time I bought her a vacuum (a good one) for her birthday years ago. I like tools for mine so I thought..... Since then I have been the vacuumer. I just bought myself a Dyson Animal vacuum and it works well. I cant understand why she was so mad.

I am wanting to downsize also. The kids are at school and the house is way to large for two of us. I just wanna slow down and have less to keep up. I reminisce how easy it was to take care of our first house that was very small.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 9:32 PM

Regret, I know of what you speak, I too am a Dyson driver. Good machine if you have an air compressor to give it a good blowing out ever so often. I also operate a high efficiency washing machine and programable slow cooker. :)

I assume a quality motor home has central vac?

-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 11:29 PM

I think it's funny to disparage the weak-willed crybabies who want to quit America because they lost one election. -- Posted by Spaniard on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 5:43 PM

You lost Missouri - badly. Why don't you move to NY or LA? Chicago?

-- Posted by Dug on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 11:36 PM

Actually it would be better if the federal government seceded from the states.

-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 11:49 PM

Whhels, Is there a ladder up to the clothes dryer? Does it pose any problems with low under passes? I bet you have to have some good clothes pins to hold them in place at highway speeds. :)

Just wondering, You in St Chas or shopping at a Walmart down south?

-- Posted by Old John on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 12:28 AM

Come on Missourians, folks think we are stupid and backwards, now we are proving this.

-- Posted by Dexterite1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 6:42 AM

Come on Missourians, folks think we are stupid and backwards, now we are proving this.

-- Posted by Dexterite1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 6:42 AM

I don't care what they think. Look at Missouri's financials and then look at theirs and who they voted for.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 9:28 AM

Dexterite1, I think we are stupid at times and backwards, but like us as we are.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 10:27 AM

I am not crying tears and wailing about it, am I? Republicans are such crybabies. -- Posted by Spaniard on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 8:26 AM

There's not enough space on here to cut and paste all the "it's Bush's fault" comments on this forum over the past several years. I'll bet I could still find a couple even after Obama's re-election. And the man was re-elected over 8 years ago.

-- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 10:35 AM

Come on Missourians, folks think we are stupid and backwards, now we are proving this. -- Posted by Dexterite1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 6:42 AM

And probably not a one of the people that think we are stupid and backwards would know how to grow a garden or feed themselves if they had to. I know a couple in the "smart and forward" city that thought fish came from building a pond, then came tadpoles which then eventually became fish. They were in their mid-20's. Nearly everyone I know in your liberal areas haven't a clue about raising livestock. Point is, they are so-called "smart" but couldn't live a week if the grocery stores ran out of food. They are dependent.

I'll stay "stupid and backwards" if that's "smart and forward".

-- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 10:41 AM

Somewhat ironic that most of the "secessionist" states receive more in government benefits than they pay in taxes.

Seems like these "taker" states may be in for a shock, which is immaterial since he whole idea amounts to no more than infantile temper tantrum, which is best ignored.

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 11:03 AM

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 11:03 AM

You want to see a temper tantrum? Take away section 8 housing, 99 weeks of unemployment, Obamaphones, Obamacare, WIC, foodstamps and medicaid. There will be riots in the streets - in mostly democrat liberal run cities where the crime, debt and unemployment are the only "positive" trends.

And your statement is incorrect. You assume that the payments we make to a massive federal bureaucracy is somehow a "benefit" to us. It's a massive bloated, overloaded self-fulfilling entity.

-- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 11:24 AM

Anthony Wile of the Daily Bell on secession http://www.thedailybell.com/28308/Anthon...

I didn't sign the petition, nor do I plan to, but I think that mob rule has taken liberties with our freedom. As far as being a backward people, meaning people like me, there are petition drives in New York and California for secession.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 11:35 AM

"I would be interested if you personally went to Texas and told the State occupants they are "no more than infantile temper tantrum" people..."

I'm sure the result would be the same as it would be here in Missouri. There will always be a tiny minority of juvenile tantrum people, opposed by the vast majority of others, who would advise us to ignore the "crazies", and to get back to the business of improving the economy and the nation

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 12:50 PM

the common garden variety of a political idiot.

-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 11:52 AM

weren't fooled by the Republican tricks especially the voting tricks and Mit, along with all the rest, can't get over it. It backfired on the true political idiots. Mit's comments this week prove his true feelings and now the Republican leaders want him to shut up. Mit sounds a lot like many of the posters here, and like him, won't shut up. LOL

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 12:56 PM

Texas might want it's independence now, but when they get it and the voters then decide to reunifiy with Mexico, I bet we hear even more whining.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:00 PM

It backfired on the true political idiots. -- Posted by username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 12:56 PM

Since Obama's re-election 2 weeks ago:

Stock market down 1000 points...

Unemployment claims have a huge rise...

Gas prices on the way back up...

Fiscal cliff on the way...

Dollar falls again against foreign currencies...

Economy still weak and heading the wrong direction...

If I voted for this - and you did - I would be careful where I point that statement above.

-- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:21 PM

Common, You are free to ignore the whole issue you think should be ignored. :)

Dex, I take backwards as a compliment compared to the forward thinking of Marx you endorse.

-- Posted by Old John on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:27 PM

"weren't fooled by the Republican tricks especially the voting tricks and Mit, along with all the rest,"

And what were the tricks?

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:34 PM

It is doubtful that Romney would have been any better than Obama. They both agree to the liberal belief that the government owns the people. Both are neoconservatives.

Neither could grasp economics well enough to understand that freedom and its production is the only way to a recovery.

Overall I'm glad that Obama beat Romney for only one reason. If Romney won the media would have blamed the free market for any downturn in the economy.

If Romney had won, it would have a continuation of the Bush/Obama anti-freedom, neoconservative, and Keynesian attack on the economy. Romney surrounded himself with neoconservatives as did Bush and Obama.

-- Posted by BCStoned on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:53 PM

A.) How many and which States have filed for session ?

None, there is no such thing as "session."

B.) Where and what amount of people are the "tiny amount" of people who are not pro-Government ?

About 5 on Speak Out.

C.) Where and what amount are the "vast majority of others, who would advise us to ignore the "crazies" ??

About 60 million voters nationwide.

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 3:02 PM

"It backfired on the true political idiots."

I take umbrage with this statement .

People who are anti-Government are "true political idiots" ?

I am in no way , shape , or form an idiot .

I may be dumb as a box of rocks ..but I can assure you I am no idiot ...

-- Posted by .Rick. on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:35 PM

Rick, I thought you were an independent. My statement had to do with the Republican voting tricks that backfired. I borrowed Wheels "true political idiots" to make my point. Sorry if you took offense.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 4:16 PM

And what were the tricks?

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:34 PM

Easy to find if you do the research and are truly interested - which I doubt.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 4:18 PM

User

You don't have any you freaking fool. Quit lying!

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 4:35 PM

If I voted for this - and you did - I would be careful where I point that statement above.

-- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 1:21 PM

Careful of what - "nutjobs"? BLAH - BLAH - BLAH!!!!!!!!

Teacher Dug, it's only been 10 days since President Obama won re-election. Did you think it would be all-better by now? The Republicans are only just now beginning to think of working with him. Too bad they wasted the last 4 years playing politics instead of focusing on getting the country back on track.

Also, you might think before you post a reply to me, the last time your ranting sounded like you went off the edge. Not good for a "teacher" of "students" (if that's what you call them - most don't)

BTW, one of my students just returned from South Korea where he visited his ill father and attended his funeral. Another voiced concerned about what is happening in her home country, Israel.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 4:40 PM

User

You don't have any you freaking fool. Quit lying!

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 4:35 PM

LOL - Regret, get your head out of the sand and don't be so lazy and do the research. Afraid to look? That tells it all FF.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 4:44 PM

There is nothing to research. You lied. If not prove me wrong. Tricks? Geez.......

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 7:06 PM

"Too bad they wasted the last 4 years playing politics instead of focusing on getting the country back on track."

Think about this.

"We don't mind the Republicans joining us. They can come for the ride, but they gotta sit in back."

True leadership skills...... That is a great way to build relationships.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 7:13 PM

Well, if you're going to quote President Obama, finish the statement..."because they crashed the car" - look it up ff. And then maybe, think about it.

And remember this, THAT leader got re-elected.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 7:52 PM

There is nothing to research. You lied. If not prove me wrong. Tricks? Geez.......

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 7:06 PM

Just as I thought, you're too afraid or lazy to look it up. LOL

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 7:54 PM

Go user I would hate to know you would be teaching my kid. You make teachers as a whole look bad.

BTW we had Pelosi, Reed, and Frank housing bust that created this mess you still blame on the Republicans and Bush. Here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEX...

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 8:13 PM

That just hurts my feelings so bad...I mean it really does. But then again, you wouldn't know if I had your kid in class would you? LOL Humm...wondering. Is that remark intended to make me suppress my comments? Yeah - that won't work. But it does remind me what the GOP tried to do to Democratic voters. BTW, you make men as a whole look bad.

Regret, I don't need your youtube, I do my own research. Did you do yours?

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 8:31 PM

I didn't expect you to watch the proof.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 9:09 PM

About 60 million voters nationwide. -- Posted by commonsensematters on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 3:02 PM

50.6%. Wow. I'm not impressed.

-- Posted by username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 4:40 PM

Fantasy. You live in a fantasy world. Seek help.

-- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 9:20 PM

What do Pelosi, Reed and Frank have to do with the tricks the GOP played? Trying to change the topic? Why?

Ah, you found out what I said was true. TOO funny.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 9:24 PM

Fantasy. You live in a fantasy world. Seek help.

-- Posted by Dug on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 9:20 PM

That's better Dug. More BLAH, but at least you weren't foaming this time.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 10:45 PM

And what is really sad- your public forum behavior- and you both claim to be teachers.

-- Posted by huntress2 on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 6:39 AM

query

I think she's drunk.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 8:15 AM

User is more than likely a high school kid.

-- Posted by FreedomFadingFast on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 8:42 AM

I know query, good teachers are supposed to be quiet and let everything slide off their backs, aren't they? Well, I get tired of that. I've found if you are going to wrestle with pigs you have to get down in the mud.

And in case you didn't know, and if it will make you feel better, only one of us is a teacher the other just "claims" to be. That is really sad.

-- Posted by Username1 on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 8:51 AM

Nope, I'm not a high school kid.

Regret teachers don't drink or go to the bathroom either. It wouldn't fit with the standards the public holds for us.

I know, we should be obedient; not have a personal position on anything (unless it supports the position you have). We shouldn't think or research for ourselves - just believe the "truth" we're fed. We shouldn't stand up for ourselves or what we know to be best for our students. We should believe "experts" and politicians who think they know our jobs better then we do, even as they pile on more. We did that and look at the education system that developed under NCLB. Of course, it's going to be a whole new world now as we swing back the other way under the state governors' plans. Teachers become the scapegoat for every experiment that comes down the line.

So nope, this teacher, is not going to keep my opinions quiet on a public forum if I feel like commenting (even if you feel a teacher should or you don't like what I have to say).

-- Posted by Username1 on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 9:20 AM

And what is really sad- your public forum behavior- and you both claim to be teachers. -- Posted by query on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 6:39 AM

Yes - and I'm schooling SueLynn/username1/???. Teaching the teacher to grow up.

-- Posted by Dug on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 12:08 PM

Rick

I was wondering the same thing.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 2:33 PM

And what is really sad- your public forum behavior- and you both claim to be teachers. -- Posted by query on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 6:39 AM

Yes - and I'm schooling SueLynn/username1/???. Teaching the teacher to grow up.

-- Posted by Dug on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 12:08 PM

Pun?

-- Posted by Username1 on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 3:30 PM

Wheels

The liberal couple (Roamers?) that did this study are Obama's people and may I say they are Berkly professors. I guess he is ignoring them.

33% is the magic number and Obama wants to raise it higher.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 8:09 PM

Seems to me that everytime the talking points are agreed upon, well this administration goes under the radar so to speak with more rules and regulations.

The talking point is the fiscal cliff that both parties concur is the crisis that has to be dealt with and the media will keep us focussed on who is not willing to compromise with the president.

Republicans will agree to higher taxes on the rich, lower taxes on the poor [as if the poor pay taxes] and rules increasing costs on small nonunionized business.

As the president goes on another world tour as his previous rules and regulations go into effect, I wouldn't be surprised to learn Lajes Field had became a Chinese military air base and the official mission statement of the International Red Cross becomes "improving U.S. relations with the Muslim Brotherhood".

-- Posted by Old John on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 12:08 AM

With all the whining about the President's travels and meeting with foreign leaders, it's a wonder President Reagan ever made it to Germany. I guess he should have stayed home as well. Oh wait, the rules are different for President Obama. And let's not forget, we have problems here at home and President Obama should be tending to those here on the ground, because there is no way for him to keep in contact when he is in a foreign country. Lets not forget that President Bush was in the air for hours during 9/11, and managed to keep in contact and work from there. People seemed to be ok with that. Oh wait, the expectations are different for President Obama.

-- Posted by Username1 on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 7:23 AM

"... it's a wonder President Reagan ever made it to Germany."

He caught a lot of flack for going there at the time. Are you suggesting that Mr. Obama should not be subjected to the same level of criticism as his predecessors?

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 8:22 AM

Are you suggesting that Mr. Obama should not be subjected to the same level of criticism as his predecessors? -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 8:22 AM

If there is any consistency in her posts that would be the number one theme. It seems to be a "common" theme among Obama supporters (worshippers).

How dare we criticize Obama - Bush was never criticized! :-)

-- Posted by Dug on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 9:32 AM

where he spends a disproportionately smaller amount of his time.-- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 9:47 AM

I think he has run the office of the president with all the experience he has - a community organizer.

If the going gets tough take a trip or play some golf. Maybe have Jay-Z over to the white house for the kids and some friends. This job is way over his head.

-- Posted by Dug on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 9:52 AM

"...more of a priority to (President) Obama then the State of America's financial future ."

Perhaps you did not notice that Congress has already left town for their Thanksgiving dinners.

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 9:59 AM

I firmly believe that we all must work together as one America in order to resolve our problems and trust me we have plenty of them. Division never works and never will. Both sides have to meet in the middle and resolve problems this tug of war that has been going on for years now must stop we are tearing down our nation. The election is over it is what it is for the next four years so now is the time for both sides to come together at the table and get this great nation of ours stablized so we can start to rebuild and move forward. The time has come that we start setting the example again before the world. "UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL".

-- Posted by swampeastmissouri on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 10:04 AM

I sincerely and succinctly with you success with the recent succession of secession submissions.

-- Posted by DADES on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 10:20 AM

Come on Missourians, folks think we are stupid and backwards, now we are proving this.

-- Posted by Dexterite1 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 6:42 AM

There is really nothing more to be said to add to this statement.

-- Posted by kcknown on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 10:38 AM


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