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The 49th Aniversary of the Assanaion of JFK is coming up
Posted by scared of the future on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 8:13 AM:

Agreed



Replies

Good grief!

-- Posted by voyager on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 8:20 AM

Yeah, those angles usually travel obliquely to avoid traids...

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 8:47 AM

Thinking about starting a new application called Spell Check in The Twilight Zone. I figure it would come in handy reading Dr. Down and Out's posts.

-- Posted by Mowrangler on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 1:04 PM

Johnson had JFK killed and 9-11 was orchestrated my snoopy.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 5:24 PM

Dr G&D,

I suggest "JFK and the Unspeakable Truth" by James Douglass. It focuses not on who killed JFK, but why he was killed.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 6:05 PM

BC, The General Butler link is a good read for those of us leary of Ron Paul's ideas of foriegn policy.

Thanks for putting that up.

-- Posted by Old John on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:24 PM

"Old John, General Butler and Ron Paul had/have the same foreign policy,.."

That is how I read it, there is plenty of potenial big profit in free trade of a peaceful nature.

Most generally the cost has been more than the profits [dollarwise] when it comes to production and sale of war materials. It's just that the costs are charged to the tax payers and the profits go to the elite.

In so called peaceful times, the Chinese make a fair profit producing U.S. military boots.

What would be the old right's stance on that?

-- Posted by Old John on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 11:21 AM

Mr. Kennedy instigated a coup against the President of South Vietnam, Ngo Dinh Diem, which resulted in the death of him and his brother. The USA-supported government which followed him was never able to mount an effective defense against the North Vietnamese. The death of Diem left the US little choice but to send in troops.

Mr. Kennedy's own assassination followed Mr. Diem's by only a couple of weeks, so he was spared having to make the crucial decisions which followed his ill-advised coup.

By 1962, we had 12,000 'advisers' in South Vietnam.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 4:20 PM

If I recall correctly the administration was willing to sacrifice a lot of lives sans purpose of any military gains during the Vietnam war.

Koh Tang Island was one lasting reminder of the inept planning and execution of war.

Sadly, the Mayaguez rescue fiasco was initiated after the war was officially over and more lives were lost that day than on the first day in Okinawa.

Of course this was way past JFK time.

-- Posted by Old John on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 4:24 PM

BC wrote: "In a free market, there are always full employment."

I'll have to let that soak in for a while but I suspect you're right.

-- Posted by Old John on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 4:38 PM

"Sadly, the Mayaguez rescue fiasco was initiated after the war was officially over and more lives were lost that day than on the first day in Okinawa."

Eh? The Mayaguez incident resulted in the successful rescue of the crew of that vessel. We lost 18 (15 during the rescue, with 3 Marines left behind, who were later exectuted). An additional 41 were wounded, for a total of 59 causalties.

There were 3,000 casualties on the first day of the Battle for Okinawa, though I'm not sure how many of those died.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 4:39 PM

BC,

Is there really such a thing as "full employment"?

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 5:16 PM

We turned on Ho Chi Minh. When France attempted to reestablish control over Vietnam. We should have kept out of it and let the French get the whipping they deserved. But no, the Mr. Democrat Johnson was gonna be the big man and start Rolling Thunder and put North Vietnam back into the stone age.

10 years later and after 58 thousand Americans dead we accepted defeat. Ladybirds Huge stock portfolio in Brown and Root and Halliburton did very well at the time. See, it ain't just Republicans.

-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 5:18 PM

Depends on what you want to count...

Per u-s-history.com for the Mayaguez incident.

but it came at a terrible cost. Forty-one US military personnel died in the operation

Eighteen Marines and airmen were killed or missing in the assault and withdrawal from Kho-Tang. Twenty-three others were killed in a helicopter crash en route from Hakhon Phanom to U-Tapao,

Per WW II (historynet.com) for Okinawa on April 1, 1945

"By day's end, 75,000 troops had established a beachhead nine miles wide and three miles deep against sporadic opposition at the cost of 28 dead and 104 wounded."

-- Posted by commonsensematters on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 5:25 PM

BC,

In a free market economy "full employment" would mean that there are a sufficient number of people producing the goods and services that people want at a specific given time. As the market allocates resources, employment rates would move up and down accordingly. A free market economy would be so dynamic that an accurate employment rate would be impossible to read.

If this country ever moved towards a free market economy, the first thing to go would be bogus government statistics.

-- Posted by Simon Jester on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 5:11 AM

"We turned on Ho Chi Minh. When France attempted to reestablish control over Vietnam. We should have kept out of it and let the French get the whipping they deserved. But no, the Mr. Democrat Johnson was gonna be the big man and start Rolling Thunder and put North Vietnam back into the stone age."

Actually, the French were out after Dien Bien Phu, which happpened during the Eisenhower administration. Mr. Eisenhower had wanted to go in and aid them, but would not go in without allies. He turned to Churchill, who refused to fight to retain French colonies while freeing English ones. Thus, the French fought and died at Dien Bien Phu, finally agreeing to the the Treaty which divided Vietnam into two, with both North and South being free from French authority.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 8:18 AM

"Did any of you in the Navy ever get sea-sick?"

I did the first cruise I took. We were off the coast of the Northeast United States, in the Gulf Stream. The rocking of the ship seemed particularly erratic, and I was sick for a couple of days.

For the remainder of my six years, I never suffered seasickness again. Only once, when I was working forward while in the Indian Ocean did I get a queasy feeling.

I still get air sick quite often, and sometimes get motion sickness in automobiles.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 8:21 AM

Rick it was people like you that ruin the fishing in the Gulf. They were always feeding the fish. LOL Never been seasick while out fishing in the Gulf. But by the looks of it I hope it never happens.

-- Posted by Mowrangler on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 1:14 PM

"A Navy boat was never for me , to little space in such a huge area ."

We distinguish between 'boats' and 'ships'. A boat is generally a smaller vessel that can be transported onboard a ship. The exception, so far as I know, is the submarine, which is known as a boat (or 'Das Boot) regardless of size.

I spent two hours on board a submarine, dockside, and that was enough for me. Our quarters were cramped on the Aircraft Carrier, but were quite roomy compared to those of submariners. There is so little space aboard submarines that the crews often have to 'hot rack', which is to say two crew memebers take turns sleeping in a single bunk. The crews are generally divided into Port and Starboard watch gangs, standing watches in four-hour sifts, such that half the crew was on duty at any given time.

I had my own 'apartment' on board the USS Carl Vinson, an aircraft carrier. My apartment for the four years I was on board was 32" wide, x 78" long x 33" high, if I recall correctly. I started with at top rack. ('Rack' is the Navy term for a the bunk beds on board. They were stacked three high where there headroom to permit it, otherwise they were two high.), which had no storage compartment beneath it. The racks had a blue curtain to shut out the light and noise, nothing else. The top racks had nothing but the overhead, with all piping, conduits, and vent shafts passing above, making it impossible to shut out the light and noise.

As I gained in seniority, I graduated to a bottom rack. The bottom and middle racks usually had a locker built into them, so that I slept atop my gear. I also had a hanging locker, and later acquired a second hanging locker by virtue of seniority. There were more lockers than racks, which permitted some of us to 'hoard' them. I was also able to score an extra set of curtains, which helped to make my little slice of heaven darker and quieter.

My rack was located in the Port Aft corner of the

berthing compartment, in which about 200 of us were berthed. It was against the bulkhead that separated our berthing compartment from the emergency diesel generators. When they were running, it was quite noisy, but the noise was a steady rhythm, which tended to drown out the irregular noises normally heard there, making it easier to sleep with them running than without.

The bottom racks had to be 'triced up', which meant that they were hinged to be lifted up and stowed in a tilted position, with the front resting against the bottom of the rack above. If the locker portion was filled with heavy objects, such as books and magazines, tricing them up was a bit of a chore. But there was the advantage of not needing to make up the rack, since the disarry of the covers was hidden when the rack was so stored.

Tricing up made the deck beneath the rack available for sweepers and for swabbing.

The head (toilets to landlubbers) were on the deck above, outboard of the Supply Department berthing that was above ours. The Supply berthing housed about 300 'Supply Pukes', as they were known. There were two heads outboard their berthing space, one port and one starboard. The starboard one seemed always to be filthy, though the port one was generally clean. Our Department had the cleaning responsibility for the one on the Port side. Supply department had responsibility for the starboard one.

The full compliment on the Carl Vinson was about 7,500 men, though I believe about 6,800 was the most we ever carried during my time there. The air crew was stationed in San Deigo, and did not remain aboard when we were not asea. Thus, the crew when we were in port or asea sans air crew was about 3,500.

Our home port after completing the around-the-world cruise in 1983 was Alameda California. Thus when we set out to sea we would cruise down the California coast to San Diego to pick up the air wing (airedales, they were called). We generally docked at North Island Naval Air Station to load the crewmen and their gear. The aircraft would then fly aboard after we departed. This usually meant a stop in San Diego of one or two days while the men and gear were loaded.

Below decks, in the reactor room, things were much more spacious. It was possible, on the night shift, to spend an entire five-hour watch without encountering another soul, though there generally roving watches that you encountered every hour. We stood five-hour watches on the Carl Vinson, though I do not know why that was. It was contrary to Navy tradition, and I do not know if it was standard on all nuclear vessels.

We also had charge of vent spaces about the ship. These were compartments of varying sizes which housed fans and ductwork that supplied the reactor compartment. We were responsible for the cleanliness and upkeep of these spaces, but some also served as unofficial office and lounge space for the crew. They were not designed for normal occupancy, but their size and configuration sometimes lent themselves to that purpose.

These spaces varied in size. The one used by my division was about 20 feet x 20 feet, with about half that space consumed by ductwork. This left sufficient room for a couple of desks and some chairs, as well as bit of floor space suitable for a game of darts. The 'bowling alley', on the other hand, was immense, being over 100 feet long and some 40 feet or so wide. It was primarily filled with ductwork, but had sufficient floor space to provide a small office for the division that maintained it. Our division had a small section of it, since the geometry of it was such that that portion was considered a separate compartment. Our portion did not lend itself to serving as an office or lounge space, but provided a quiet space for reading or other quiet activity, since it was infrequented by normal traffic.

In other words, we had a fair amount of room on the carrier, though it was no private beach.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 2:47 PM

I only toured the submarine to see whether or not I was willing to volunteer for submarine duty. I wasn't. It did not leave the pier while I was aboard.

I did take a dive on a tourist submarine in Hawaii. That one, at least, had windows.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 3:19 PM

Shap, I took that dive in Hawaii. Wasn't all that impressed. Later we went on a daybreak fishing trip about 5 mles or so, far enough to not see land. The fishing didn't interest me but I really enjoyed the boat ride. About 30 minutes out the Capt pointed out three coolers, one with soft drinks, one with beer and one with sandwiches. We all stared at the coolers for about 15 minites and that was one of the few times I was ever a leader of anything or anybody as I was first to start getting my money's worth.

The Whale watching ride with the famous tour guide held my attention as we saw several, then I realized there was a generous open bar below deck. :)

-- Posted by Old John on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 5:36 PM

Rick, Agreed, I remember taking note of where the life jackects were, thinking that large boat would be no match for one of them critters if it decided to surface up close or come whomp us with a tail.

-- Posted by Old John on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 6:22 PM

I worked below the water line when I was on the carrier. But, while there was water all around me, I preferred not to have it above me...

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Nov 30, 2012, at 6:13 AM

"I wonder if the dude had a flashlight or shot up out of the whale's blow-hole ..."

Frank T. Bullen spent time aboard a whale-ship, which he recounts in his book 'Cruise of the Cachalot'. He was also a religious man, as well as an observer of marine life. He wrote a book, Denizens of the Deep, which describes many type of marine life he encountered during his years as a seafaring man.

He had wondered about the story of Jonah and, having viewed a variety of whales, surmised that a sperm whale was the only likely whale that could have swallowed Jonah whole and 'vomited him up on dry land', as the Bible recounts. Unlike most whales, the Sperm Whale has a jawbone with teeth, rather than a baleen which strains the food from the water. The mouth opening is sufficient to permit the swallowing of a man, and from the remnants of animals he observed when cutting open such whales, it appeared possible that a man could have remained whole inside the belly of such a beast for three days.

There is trapped air in the whale's belly, which would have permitted a man to breathe, and the digestion is sufficiently slow that he would not have deteriorated due to them to a degree sufficient to cause death.

-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Nov 30, 2012, at 10:53 AM


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