Speak Out: Family Tree

Replies (25)

• Wheels,

  I start. My paternal grandmother's maiden name is Fischer. Have info back to her Grandfather but that is it. Believe he might be one of the German/Russians we have been talking about, but not sure.

  Also, have you come across alot in your research of siblings of X marrying the siblings of X's wife? Seems for my family, the picking were scarce in ND and SD so lots of thinning branches so to speak. lol

  -- Posted by Pups on Wed, Sep 9, 2009, at 9:59 AM

• Pups,

  Just saw this, great idea. I will respond later as I gotta run.

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, Sep 9, 2009, at 12:55 PM

• Several ancestors on maternal side who did that, Pups ... the sibling marriage thing ... back in the 1600's. Like you said, not many choices for marriage back then. Also at least one male ancestor who married his brother's widow and then had more children ...

  Interesting but sometimes hard to untangle all the links in those families!

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Wed, Sep 9, 2009, at 3:10 PM

• Wheels,

  No problem, thought you might see it eventually.

  James Nall,

  I actually enjoy it all, so not more information then I was looking for with the thread. Sounds like your sister did alot of work. Also, you might just have German in you concidering England has a lot of German/Dutch mixed in. Especially back then.

  Gurusmom,

  I also have a feeling alot of it has to do with keeping certain lands within certain families. I found with a friend's family that alot of the families married within each other. Friend's G-G-G-Great Grandfathers on their Mother's side were founders of a city in California. So to keep it 'in the family' there is a group of 3 or 4 families that intermarried.

  Also, it could have been with the social status of the families. With my family before they immigrated to the US, though still technically farmers still tried to marry other families prominant in the village. And when in the US they pretty much stayed within the German families that had immigrated with them.

  -- Posted by Pups on Wed, Sep 9, 2009, at 5:14 PM

• Pups,

  Regarding the Fischer relative, not sure where or how you checked, but have you checked the name as Visser or Visfer in perhaps some of the records of your Great Great Grandfather or his father prior to him. I believe I read where most of these German/Russians you are tracing were Lutheran. Not sure that is the case with you, but if so, Lutherans and Catholics were some of the better record keepers, as I think the requirement was there from the hierarchy to do so.

  Other sources are property transfer records at the Recorders Office in the county seat. Presuming of course that North Dakota is structured as it is here.

  Yes, there is plenty of evidence of First Cousins marrying. I know of several cases. In the case of Catholics, it was forbidden at least in later years, but a sure fire way of getting the restriction relaxed some 50 years ago at lease was for there to be a pregnancy involved. These people were resourceful... Problem solved.

  Regards the branches of the family tree thinning, I have heard the comment that some family trees looked like a telephone pole, they didn't fork.

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Wed, Sep 9, 2009, at 9:25 PM

• Wheels,

  I have tried census reports for SD and ND for the name Fischer. Will have to see what I can find with your suggestions. And yes the family back then was Lutheran, well most still are. Admittedly have concentrated on SD mostly. Will have to check more closely into ND.

  Mmmmm thought Catholics didn't approve of premarital sex. Wonder how they got approval for marriage for First cousins but didn't get into trouble for the first part of being pregnant???? One of those things that make one go mmmmmmm I guess. ;)

  -- Posted by Pups on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 4:36 PM

• Pups,

  You had to go to confession and be sorry... well at least say you were. Being a realist here.

  Lots of things to make one go hmmmmmmmm in Genealogy.I have searched Catholic records and while I think they may have forgotten to enter information from time to time, have found them to be pretty good. I think you would find Lutheran records equally as good to search for information. I have not had a reason to look into the Lutheran Church's records.

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 6:10 PM

• Can probably learn a lot from you, Wheels, and Pups ... Since getting back as far as I did in this country, haven't made the further effort to try and find ancestors in Europe ... It just all gets so complicated and confusing to me ...

  Very interesting about marriage to preserve familial property! Hadn't thought of that aspect at all.

  Wheels, don't forget that after the sin was confessed there also had to be a promise not to do it again ... and I guess mean it! ~laughing~

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 9:00 PM

• Don't forget LDS ... It's so interesting that they made (make?) such an effort to keep adding to their genealogy library, regardless of a family's religion.

  Wish I'd kept all that literature I used to have ... the story behind their registry and why people thought they wanted others' genealogical records ... and why other religions refused to open their records to them.

  Religious 'fairy tales' at their most humorous! Oh, darn ... Sitting here frozen in fear wondering if there's a Mormon (or anyone) taking offense at my levity! So I'll say ... I respect that religion as much as I do any other one ...

  Okay?

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 9:07 PM

• Gurusmom,

  Social standing was still an issue in the early 80's with my Oma. One time while visiting her in Germany, my sister met a guy. My Oma objected to her talking to him because he was from the wrong side of a wall. I know her and my Mother had a long heated discussion, but it was in German so I didn't know what they were saying. Sister was able to talk to him after that. And it's not like my Sister planned on marrying him. lol

  -- Posted by Pups on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 9:47 PM

• Wheel,

  I'm not good at the whole confessional thing. I can say I have never actually had to. Though it could be that I haven't been a practicing Catholic. I'm a Catholic by birth not by practice. Condition of parent's marriage. Always joked with my Mother that I could get her marriage to my Father annulled(sp). She said, "Go for it, cause all you kids are staying with your Father."

  -- Posted by Pups on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 9:52 PM

• Pups,

  Back again, I know you are joking about your mother but for just a moment, stop to think about the genealogist 50 or 100 years from now trying to untangle all of these relationship webs of today. A single mother with 8 children and 8 separate fathers not to mention the dozens of possibilities that there could be some confusion on the actual parentage of any or all of the 8.

  Mom,

  From what I have heard, the Church of Latter Day Saints actually has the motive of "baptising" people into their faith after the fact??? Don't really know much about their religion.

  Regarding the marriage to retain property... I don't think that had much to do with the intermarrying of family members with the people I am working with. I think, the close knit community, poor transportation and the prohibition of interfaith marriage had more to do with it than money. Most had little of that to worry about.

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 10:10 PM

• Mom,

  Don't wnt to pollute Pups thread here, but I plan on being at Jer's tomorrow night at 6:00pm or so. Is that still a go?

  Pups you can come too!

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 10:13 PM

• Wheels,

  Thanks for the invite, but have to work.

  Oh it is a funny story with my Mom, the church, and the annulment, but also true. She was a Novis Nun when she met my Father and had to get permission from the Pope to marry. One of the conditions was that we (the kids) be raised Catholic. Long story short, by the time I came around, my Mother's faith in the Church and it's teachings had waned. She found her Faith again later, but I was already an adult.

  -- Posted by Pups on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 10:30 PM

• Wheels,

  Yeah, I can see what you mean. Sorry mis read what you were trying to say about genealogist 50 or 100 years from now. Hadn't really thought about that. Heck it get confusing enough now. My Great Grandfather was married 4 times (children only from first wife) but so far I have only found paperwork on my Great Grandmother. I need to bite the bullet and actually pay for membership again to some of the genealogy websites that have more info. Cause I didn't have much luck with LDS website.

  -- Posted by Pups on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 10:35 PM

• Pups

  Just for a kick, I looked at Visser and Visfer briefly. Most are from Holland, but some from Germany and have found some in South Dakota. Especially in the 1910 census. But not knowing exactly what I was looking for, just thought I would check out the last name.

  This ould be how the name evolved, and it could be a total dead end. But checking it out would keep you off the street for awhile. :-)

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 11:45 PM

• Wheels,

  Thanks. I will try some searches tomorrow. Again, appreciate your help and realize your adds are tied as far as what you are looking for.

  Oh and the two jobs keep me off the street. lol

  -- Posted by Pups on Fri, Sep 11, 2009, at 12:27 AM

• Mom-I'm the voyeur that peeks in at Pups and Wheels posts about geneology,something I'm interested in.

  You really got my attention referring to your Oma. My grandkids call me that, but I've never heard it outside out family.

  -- Posted by mommalolo on Sat, Sep 12, 2009, at 2:49 PM

• ... joked with my Mother that I could get her marriage to my Father annulled(sp). She said, "Go for it, cause all you kids are staying with your Father."

  -- Posted by Pups on Thu, Sep 10, 2009, at 9:52 PM

  HILARIOUS!

  That's pretty much it, Wheels ... People did believe that if they turned over their ancestor records to LDS, those deceased would become (gasp!) Mormons! Well, that isn't exactly it, but sort of what it amounted to. Wish I'd kept all that literature ... hard to find it now. Think it became 'politically' ('religiously?') incorrect ...

  I became interested because we lived across the river from and visited Navoo, IL for a year or so ... then one son married a Mormon woman ... then when we were in Salt Lake City I discovered that my maternal grandmother's family were Latter Day Saints (a family secret I guess in a Catholic family)! Would love to go back there and log into their computer system again ... as you said, the website certainly was disappointing. All we had to pay for was for the paper at the Family Center ... guess at some point someone realized there was 'real money' to be made in genealogy ... Seems like we used to be able to go into several sites for free years ago, but not anymore I guess. Know one thing ... the monthly 'dues' seem to be rather overpriced.

  mommalolo ... Wheels and Pups seem to have done really good with their genealogy, and have some good thoughts/suggestions.

  Funny about 'grandma titles,' isn't it? Oma was Pups' grandmother (the German heritage? Some 'grandmas' names derive from how their first grandchild pronounces the word; some are passed down to newer generations. Intersting, isn't it?

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Sat, Sep 12, 2009, at 7:37 PM

• mommalolo,

  Growing up I always had an Oma and a Grandmother. Mother is from Germany and that is what we were taught to call her Mother, just as my neices and nephews refered to my Mother. Strange that we didn't refer to both grandmothers as Oma as both were German. Oh and I had an Opa and a Grandfather too. :)

  -- Posted by Pups on Sun, Sep 13, 2009, at 7:27 AM

• Pups,

  Have a friend who spent 14 years in Hong Kong, work connected. With two daughters and working parents they had, what he called an Uma/Oma working for them who lived with them and took care of the children when the parents were unavailable, Don't know how he spelled it, but what he called the lady sounded much like what you called your Grandmother.

  Spent yesterday going through a treasure trove of pictures that recently became known to exist. I scanned some 200 pictures many of which are going to be a challenge to identify. some never will I am sure.

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Sun, Sep 13, 2009, at 7:42 PM

• That's so great, Wheels ... I'm envious.

  All of my pictures were destroyed in a fire back in the late 1970's ... Mama still had some of the family that she hadn't given me, so I got copies, but ... Everything else was replaceable, in time, but things like the pictures (including those of the kids and their dad) and some of the things the kids made for me were the saddest to lose.

  Anyway, you'll have a fine time trying to figure out some of yours ... which I assume are like many and don't have names/dates on the back of them?

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Sun, Sep 13, 2009, at 11:24 PM

• And say hi to Mrs. Wheels for me! She is such a delightful lady.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Sun, Sep 13, 2009, at 11:25 PM

• And say hi to Mrs. Wheels for me! She is such a delightful lady.

  -- Posted by gurusmom on Sun, Sep 13, 2009, at 11:25 PM

  Thank you Mom, will do!

  I am so sorry to hear about your pictures. They are hard to replace, but sometimes duplicates can show up from unlikely sources.

  Had a Great Uncle by marriage who remarried after the Great Aunt died. The Great Uncle then passed away in 1957 after only being remarried about 1 1/2 years. Just recently the widow of the 2nd marriage called and asked an Aunt if she would be interested in some pictures that she had of the first wife and family. And yes we would thank you very much.

  Found a family group picture that I am sure is of My Great Grandparents and for sure at least 4 of their 8 children. The interesting part though, is there is another couple, just slightly older, who I have to investigate, but I believe is my Great Grandmother's sister and family. Here is where it gets complicated.

  This sister of the Great Grandmother (Paternal) was also the Mother of my Great Grandmother on the maternal side of the fmily, making her my Great Great Grandmother. You may have to read that more than once.

  I would like to include Pups into this predicament... how do I refer to the Father of these two grils? Is he my Paternal Great Great Grandfather and my Maternal Great Great Great Grandfather, or is he simply my Great Great Grandfather or would it be Great Great Great Grandfather?

  Good Night!

  -- Posted by Have_Wheels_Will_Travel on Mon, Sep 14, 2009, at 12:11 AM

• Wheels,

  I believe the term would be twice related or shared relation, then you discribe. You pretty much did that. Unfortunately no easy way around multi-line relationship other then to use Paternal and Maternal in same discription.

  Remember that pole vs tree we talked about???? lol

  -- Posted by Pups on Mon, Sep 14, 2009, at 1:43 PM